[SS] Pentium 4 club [Archive] - ShamikaServer Forums

slayer[SS]

03-28-2003, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

slayer, I've had 3 AMD cpus so far and not one crushed core. I missed the Thunderbird/Spitfire days, so maybe that's why, but regardless, I don't think crushed cores are AMD's problem. I do agree about polish, though. Intel is just "fancier." I also wasn't necessarily talking about benchmarks either. As far as "feeling" goes, just about anything you buy now and days is going to be fast enough that "feeling" a difference may be more psychological than real.

Well, I AM one of those people who crushed a CPU core on my very first AMD system (a 1.2Ghz Tbird) and it was WAY TOO EASY! Yes, I've installed dozens of Athlon's since then with no problem, but that's because I'm EXTREMELY cautious now when I do an install. Not a bad thing, but it shouldn't have been that easy to destroy a CPU.

The feeling I'm talking about can be noticed, if it's there. Here's an example; when I upgraded to AMD the first time (after buying another processor to replace the one I crushed), I noticed that UT seemed to "stutter" a little bit in gameplay. I posted in forums all over the place and never got any good responses. My old system had been a PIII 550 / BX mobo based system and it played UT very smoothly. The new system, a 1.2Ghz Tbird with a KT133A board, played it with a little stutter to the gameplay. I never really got that resolved, I just got used to the gameplay being that way (like some people get used to lag when they play online). I'm just curious to see if the gameplay feels smoother on the P4 platform, or if I'll even notice any difference at all... ;)

slayer[SS]

03-28-2003, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by Oreo[SS]

Currently have 2 AMD Duals running and 3 single AMD ring running in house. Hmmm I will hev to look that list looks mighty short for my house. Folding, folding, folding... ;)

Well, see, now I feel poor again. I only have 4 systems... :(

:D

Oreo[SS]

03-28-2003, 07:03 AM

Notice I said systems I have running... ;) Whiplash that doesn't include any of the servers or the other systems I have sitting quitely in the utility room just those running here at the house.

slayer[SS]

03-28-2003, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by Oreo[SS]

Notice I said systems I have running... ;) Whiplash that doesn't include any of the servers or the other systems I have sitting quitely in the utility room just those running here at the house.

See, I'm just trying to make do with my MEASLY 4 systems...;)

whiplash[SS]

03-28-2003, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Oreo[SS]

Notice I said systems I have running... ;) Whiplash that doesn't include any of the servers or the other systems I have sitting quitely in the utility room just those running here at the house.

Oh. :embrassed:

Anyway, I have one amd single processor rig.

whiplash[SS]

03-28-2003, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

See, I'm just trying to make do with my MEASLY 4 systems...;)

LOL

Sabrewulf165

03-28-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

See, I'm just trying to make do with my MEASLY 4 systems...;)

hahaha you guys suck! :p

slayer[SS]

03-28-2003, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

hahaha you guys suck! :p

Well, I may end up selling one of my systems. It depends on how the P4 project goes, but I'm thinking of selling my second system to finance a new Lian Li case, a 480W Antec True Blue PSU and a Radeon 9800Pro... :D

Sabrewulf165

03-28-2003, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Well, I may end up selling one of my systems. It depends on how the P4 project goes, but I'm thinking of selling my second system to finance a new Lian Li case, a 480W Antec True Blue PSU and a Radeon 9800Pro... :D

nice! Did you read they may be selling limited quantities of the Radeon 9800 Pro with 256 MB of DDR II? Pretty ridiculous if you ask me, but it sure does sound nice :D Has a nice fat MSRP of $599, too :eek: You can build a whole computer for that :rolleyes:

whiplash[SS]

03-28-2003, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

nice! Did you read they may be selling limited quantities of the Radeon 9800 Pro with 256 MB of DDR II? Pretty ridiculous if you ask me, but it sure does sound nice :D Has a nice fat MSRP of $599, too :eek: You can build a whole computer for that :rolleyes:

I bet they sell out of them too.

Whammo

03-28-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Oreo[SS]

Currently have 2 AMD Duals running and 3 single AMD ring running in house. Hmmm I will hev to look that list looks mighty short for my house. Folding, folding, folding... ;)

Can anyone explain folding to me? I see a lot about it but have no idea what this is.

Thanks,
Bob

The Dragon[SS]

03-28-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

You know, I just thought of this; since I'm not on the staff at AXP anymore, I don't have to worry about pissing off AMD... :p

Monarch was always trembling in their boots whenever I posted any P4 related news or reviews, but since this site is a GAMING site, I can talk about ANY PC hardware I want. Hmmm... I kinda think I'm gonna like the freedom... :D

No, but you do have to worry about pissing me off. For shame, going over to the dark side:D . Hope you enjoy it. Let me Know how it works out.

slayer[SS]

03-28-2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

No, but you do have to worry about pissing me off. For shame, going over to the dark side:D . Hope you enjoy it. Let me Know how it works out.

I will definitely do that... ;)

Sabrewulf165

03-28-2003, 03:26 PM

Seriously slayer, you know all my anti-intel rhetoric was in good fun ;) let us know how the pees perform :D

slayer[SS]

03-28-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

Seriously slayer, you know all my anti-intel rhetoric was in good fun ;) let us know how the pees perform :D

Yep, I know. Just rising to the challenge... :p

slayer[SS]

03-28-2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Whammo Brewer[SS]

Can anyone explain folding to me? I see a lot about it but have no idea what this is.

Thanks,
Bob

Oreo can tell you whatever you want to know about folding Bob... ;)

whiplash[SS]

03-28-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by Whammo Brewer[SS]

Can anyone explain folding to me? I see a lot about it but have no idea what this is.

Thanks,
Bob

Here is what I know about folding. What folding does is helps find cures for diseases and such. The way the program works is it either runs in an open window or not. The program only runs whenever your computer is just idling. Oreo knows more about this than me. So I hope some of it was helpful.

The Dragon[SS]

03-28-2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by whiplash[SS]

Here is what I know about folding. What folding does is helps find cures for diseases and such. The way the program works is it either runs in an open window or not. The program only runs whenever your computer is just idling. Oreo knows more about this than me. So I hope some of it was helpful.

I will do my humble best to explain a little bit about it. It is sort of like Seti but it is not frivolous like Seti.

It uses your spare CPU cycles to crunch medical research. It is searching for cures of diseases, such as, cancer, viruses, alzhiemers and other such things that plague mankind. It runs in the background or you can use a screen saver edition.

If you have ever wanted to help mankind this is a painless way to do it. They are hoping to find a cure for AIDS, alzhiemers, any kind of plague that cripples or hurts mankind. It's a good way to make yourself feel good about yourself:) .
The dragon

Sabrewulf165

03-28-2003, 06:06 PM

hehehe rise to this challenge ;) looks like you're still gonna beat me on iSSE2, but oh well, that's a tool of the monopolists anyway :rolleyes:

Zwolf[SS]

03-28-2003, 08:51 PM

Well said, and true! :)
Originally posted by The Dragon

I will do my humble best to explain a little bit about it. It is sort of like Seti but it is not frivolous like Seti.

It uses your spare CPU cycles to crunch medical research. It is searching for cures of diseases, such as, cancer, viruses, alzhiemers and other such things that plague mankind. It runs in the background or you can use a screen saver edition.

If you have ever wanted to help mankind this is a painless way to do it. They are hoping to find a cure for AIDS, alzhiemers, any kind of plague that cripples or hurts mankind. It's a good way to make yourself feel good about yourself:) .
The dragon

Sabrewulf165

03-29-2003, 02:16 AM

hey slayer, i think I figured out what you mean by "feeling" the difference. I wasn't thinking about it before, but am I guessing correctly that you mean the responsiveness of the system and how "nimble" things feel? That I can understand... before I was thinking in terms of a few extra fps on a benchie or whatever. For that case, I still stand by my original statement ;)

slayer[SS]

03-29-2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

hey slayer, i think I figured out what you mean by "feeling" the difference. I wasn't thinking about it before, but am I guessing correctly that you mean the responsiveness of the system and how "nimble" things feel? That I can understand... before I was thinking in terms of a few extra fps on a benchie or whatever. For that case, I still stand by my original statement ;)

Nope, you got it right this time... ;)

I mean how quick the system responds, how smooth games play, etc. FPS is not the best yardstick for games, as I found out with my first AMD system. The FPS were way higher, but because of the stuttering problem, I enjoyed the gameplay better on my older system.

whiplash[SS]

03-29-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Nope, you got it right this time... ;)

I mean how quick the system responds, how smooth games play, etc. FPS is not the best yardstick for games, as I found out with my first AMD system. The FPS were way higher, but because of the stuttering problem, I enjoyed the gameplay better on my older system.

I will gladly take your current off your hands at no charge.:D Both of you have a really nice system, I'm waiting for the 9700pro to drop to $199 sometime this century.;)

slayer[SS]

03-29-2003, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by whiplash[SS]

I will gladly take your current off your hands at no charge.:D Both of you have a really nice system, I'm waiting for the 9700pro to drop to $199 sometime this century.;)

Yeah, I think by the time the 9800 Pro hits the store shelves, the 9700 Pro should drop at least $100. That'll put it around the $200 - $250 mark in most cases. When the plain 9800 comes out, it should drop even further... ;)

whiplash[SS]

03-29-2003, 10:38 AM

I thought the 9800 pro was suppose to hit the shelves this month or next month.

slayer[SS]

03-29-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by whiplash[SS]

I thought the 9800 pro was suppose to hit the shelves this month or next month.

Yep, that's what I heard as well. It'll probably take a week or so for the 9700 Pro prices to adjust. I'm hoping that I'll be able to get myself a 9800 Pro in the next month or two... :D

The Dragon[SS]

03-29-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Yep, that's what I heard as well. It'll probably take a week or so for the 9700 Pro prices to adjust. I'm hoping that I'll be able to get myself a 9800 Pro in the next month or two... :D

It's bad enough that you're going to the dark side for your CPU, now you're talking about going to that trashy dark side on the video card. Don't worry, I have about 500 feet of rope and about 1000 foot of cable. I might be able to pull you out of that deep dark black hole.:D
The dragon

slayer[SS]

03-29-2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by The Dragon

It's bad enough that you're going to the dark side for your CPU, now you're talking about going to that trashy dark side on the video card. Don't worry, I have about 500 feet of rope and about 1000 foot of cable. I might be able to pull you out of that deep dark black hole.:D
The dragon

:p

Well, while I'm trying one new thing, I thought I should try another as well... :D

The Dragon[SS]

03-29-2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

:p

Well, while I'm trying one new thing, I thought I should try another as well... :D

Heh, heh, My Friend Says He Has a 10 Yard Dragline and His Buddy Has One Also, but Try to Keep in Mind When You're Making These Decisions about the 20 Yard Limitations:D . I Mean Those Dragline's Will Only Haul You up so Far.
The Dragon

Sabrewulf165

03-29-2003, 12:32 PM

wt, I could've sworn you once said you were waiting for the 9700 pro to come down so you could buy one of those... now you're saying you want a 9800 pro? Methinks slayer is trying to outclass me again :D ;)

whiplash[SS]

03-29-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

wt, I could've sworn you once said you were waiting for the 9700 pro to come down so you could buy one of those... now you're saying you want a 9800 pro? Methinks slayer is trying to outclass me again :D ;)

I'm waiting for the 9700pro to drop in price.8`/

slayer[SS]

03-29-2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Heh, heh, My Friend Says He Has a 10 Yard Dragline and His Buddy Has One Also, but Try to Keep in Mind When You're Making These Decisions about the 20 Yard Limitations:D . I Mean Those Dragline's Will Only Haul You up so Far.
The Dragon

Don't worry, I have a whole other system as backup, just in case... ;)

slayer[SS]

03-29-2003, 01:27 PM

Sabrewulf165

03-29-2003, 04:13 PM

all prices are OEM from newegg.com as of 3/29/03

266/400 FSB
----------------------
XP 2400+ : $130
P4 2400 : $163
----------------------

333/533 FSB
----------------------
XP 2500+ : $170
P4 2533 : $189

XP 2600+ : $219
P4 2666 : $231

XP 2800+ : $340
P4 2800 : $345

XP 3000+ : $555
P4 3066 : $528
----------------------

I have admit, the price differences are fairly minimal in the mid to high-end range, and even flip to Intel's favor in the ultra-high end. I think at this point the main reason I wouldn't go Intel can be summed up in two words: unlocked multipliers ;) Half the fun of a computer for me is tweaking and playing with it, and I've thoroughly enjoyed having a full range of multipliers to choose from since I got my Tbred chip :) Other than that, however, or if you don't do much overclocking, it does seem like Intel is a very good choice. I guess this is the kind of image that AMD needs to work against to get themselves back in the game...

slayer[SS]

03-29-2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

all prices are OEM from newegg.com as of 3/29/03

266/400 FSB
----------------------
XP 2400+ : $130
P4 2400 : $163
----------------------

333/533 FSB
----------------------
XP 2500+ : $170
P4 2533 : $189

XP 2600+ : $219
P4 2666 : $231

XP 2800+ : $340
P4 2800 : $345

XP 3000+ : $555
P4 3066 : $528
----------------------

I have admit, the price differences are fairly minimal in the mid to high-end range, and even flip to Intel's favor in the ultra-high end. I think at this point the main reason I wouldn't go Intel can be summed up in two words: unlocked multipliers ;) Half the fun of a computer for me is tweaking and playing with it, and I've thoroughly enjoyed having a full range of multipliers to choose from since I got my Tbred chip :) Other than that, however, or if you don't do much overclocking, it does seem like Intel is a very good choice. I guess this is the kind of image that AMD needs to work against to get themselves back in the game...

True, plus if you look at the retail boxed CPU's (which you can do if you don't overclock), the P4 comes out ahead even at the 2.8/2800+ level... ;)

I'm not looking to overclock my P4 system, I just wanna see how it runs as is straight outta the box... :cool:

The Dragon[SS]

03-29-2003, 06:15 PM

How much do the boards cost? How do they compare in price? We have several Intel systems (well 4) and everybody talks about how much faster the Intel is but in real life I don't think it is that much faster, if faster at all. I could be wrong, but Jerry has a faster processor and memory, but mine will fold faster than his. So, I don't have the answer, yes I do, which ever one makes you happy, that's the best one. Better yet, which ever one you get the best price on:D .
The dragon

Whammo

03-29-2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Yeah, I think by the time the 9800 Pro hits the store shelves, the 9700 Pro should drop at least $100. That'll put it around the $200 - $250 mark in most cases. When the plain 9800 comes out, it should drop even further... ;)

I saw the 9700 Pro for 274 on Price watcher the other day. It's coming down.

BTW, Thanks for all the explanations about folding. I have seen this for Seti, but not for medical research. My computer is not hooked to the internet 24/7, but only when I logon. Perhaps the school would allow me to do something like this on the t1 line at school.

BTW, is there anything bigger or faster than t1?

Thanks,
bob

Zwolf[SS]

03-29-2003, 10:41 PM

Well I just emerged from computer hardware hell!! I setup my new system last night and everything seem just peachy. Then slowy but surely (Hi Shirley) it became more and more unstable. I told Slayer I thought that it was funny that music on my new Intel system sounded better, well it did until it started to play odd sounds, crackle and pop and then all of a sudden my USB mouse started to get flaky. Well really long stroy short, the SBLiveware crap screwed with my system so bad that I had to purchase a new drive. But did I learn? Nooooo, I installed a new OS, all my other drivers first and everything was all warm and fuzzy again. So what the hell? Why not install the SBlive drivers and assorted junk? Well the drivers install just fine with no problems on their own, butany other Creative garbageware that accompanies it slams my machine to the dirt. So, I guess I get to buy a new sound card next week too! So much for a well thought out cheap upgrade. Oh BTW after I removed all the Creative crappola and left just the driver, I have sound and nothing is being affected. :rolleyes: PS, when she's running she's mighty mighty!!!

slayer[SS]

03-30-2003, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

Well I just emerged from computer hardware hell!! I setup my new system last night and everything seem just peachy. Then slowy but surely (Hi Shirley) it became more and more unstable. I told Slayer I thought that it was funny that music on my new Intel system sounded better, well it did until it started to play odd sounds, crackle and pop and then all of a sudden my USB mouse started to get flaky. Well really long stroy short, the SBLiveware crap screwed with my system so bad that I had to purchase a new drive. But did I learn? Nooooo, I installed a new OS, all my other drivers first and everything was all warm and fuzzy again. So what the hell? Why not install the SBlive drivers and assorted junk? Well the drivers install just fine with no problems on their own, butany other Creative garbageware that accompanies it slams my machine to the dirt. So, I guess I get to buy a new sound card next week too! So much for a well thought out cheap upgrade. Oh BTW after I removed all the Creative crappola and left just the driver, I have sound and nothing is being affected. :rolleyes: PS, when she's running she's mighty mighty!!!

LiveWare is bad, MMmmmmkay?? ;)

Zwolf[SS]

03-30-2003, 11:02 AM

The board is bad. I'm sending it back tomorrow. Even with no sound card, a fresh install of the OS and using safe BIOS settings it's totally unstable. :hrmph:

slayer[SS]

03-30-2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

The board is bad. I'm sending it back tomorrow. Even with no sound card, a fresh install of the OS and using safe BIOS settings it's totally unstable. :hrmph:

VIA is bad, MMmmmmkay?? ;)

:p

WindsorFox[SS]

03-30-2003, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

Well I just emerged from computer hardware hell!!

Were you shopping at Monarch?? :p

Heh, eeehh.... but seriously (Hello Shirley) You know the Midiman Revolution has better specs than the A2, doesn't have bloatware, AND is only $99.

Sabrewulf165

03-30-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

VIA is bad, MMmmmmkay?? ;)

:p

not true, I've had a KT333 and a KT400 and they were both great boards, no troubles to speak of. Neither of them were as fast as this nForce, but they were both the fastest in their class when I got them.

slayer[SS]

03-30-2003, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

not true, I've had a KT333 and a KT400 and they were both great boards, no troubles to speak of. Neither of them were as fast as this nForce, but they were both the fastest in their class when I got them.

I didn't have problems with mine either, but VIA + Creative = bad quite often. I personally have not read anything good about that VIA P4 chipset. Matter of fact, I believe they're not even licensed, which is always problematic. Personally, if I'm using Intel, the only chipset I want is Intel... ;)

Zwolf[SS]

03-30-2003, 02:29 PM

Well after looking up some rather disappointing reviews of the VIA P4X400 chipset I have to say that is most likely the problem with the SOYO board. There are both memory and power issues and the people that have good ones seem to be a very lucky few. The board when it first came out was being praised by the reviewers and was given board of the year by Computer Shopper. The thing is, after going through VIA related websites and taking a look at the forums many of the reviews were amended later on to include the reported problems with these boards. I have always been a pretty big fan of viatech, and have never had a problem using a via chipset in any AMD based platform. That reason and the initial reviews were partially what my purchase was based on. It's too bad really, because the board does have a good layout, is inexpensive, and comes from a reputable company. I'll be making a final decision on what to replace it with tomorrow.

slayer[SS]

03-30-2003, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

Well after looking up some rather disappointing reviews of the VIA P4X400 chipset I have to say that is most likely the problem with the SOYO board. There are both memory and power issues and the people that have good ones seem to be a very lucky few. The board when it first came out was being praised by the reviewers and was given board of the year by Computer Shopper. The thing is, after going through VIA related websites and taking a look at the forums many of the reviews were amended later on to include the reported problems with these boards. I have always been a pretty big fan of viatech, and have never had a problem using a via chipset in any AMD based platform. That reason and the initial reviews were partially what my purchase was based on. It's too bad really, because the board does have a good layout, is inexpensive, and comes from a reputable company. I'll be making a final decision on what to replace it with tomorrow.

Yeah, VIA has done me good on the AMD side, but I'd heard some bad about that board, which is why I shied away. I'd actually been tempted, cause it really looked sweet, but from everything I'd read, the i845PE chipset is what looked the best. I'm praying that when I put my system together next weekend I don't have any problems... :xx

Zwolf[SS]

03-30-2003, 06:08 PM

It does seem that just about every i845PE based board out there is getting glowing reviews. Some seem a little faster than others and of course there's the "Bells and whistles" factor. There's certainly a wide variety of boards to chose from. The thing that appealed to me the most about the VIA chipset was both the support for APG 8X and DDR400. After looking at some i845PE boards using DDR333 the variance in memory scores seems to be rather close, and of course AGP 8X hasn't shown much of an advantage. It would however be nice to see both of these become standards that were reliable, and widely available through an intel chipset.

Um, this conversation is starting to read more like a review all the time ;)

Oreo[SS]

03-30-2003, 06:16 PM

You know as much as Slayer loves his Soyo products I personally have had nothing but issues with every platform I have seen. Of course I thought it might just have been because they all belonged to RED!!! :p

Thomas

03-31-2003, 02:15 AM

you cant get Soyo's in Australia, probably a good thing.

I thought about picking up a Pentium 4 for my next rig........

but since this 1800+ i have here is a downgraded 2800+, look slike i'm sticking to AMD:banger:

slayer[SS]

03-31-2003, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by Oreo[SS]

You know as much as Slayer loves his Soyo products I personally have had nothing but issues with every platform I have seen. Of course I thought it might just have been because they all belonged to RED!!! :p

Hmmmmm.... you think that had something to do with it?? :p

Seriously though, while I love Soyo products, I sure as hell wish I knew why they made some of the decisions they have. They don't even have a i845PE based mobo, which is just plain silly and they don't have an nForce2 board either. WTF are they thinking?? I know they're a major player with VIA, but PLEASE!! :mad:

Zwolf[SS]

03-31-2003, 02:25 PM

Well, while you've always been a fan of SOYO, I've always been a fan of MSI. I just picked up THE most basic i845PE board I could find, an MSI 845PE MAX. I'll let you know how it goes. :rolleyes:

slayer[SS]

03-31-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

Well, while you've always been a fan of SOYO, I've always been a fan of MSI. I just picked up THE most basic i845PE board I could find, an MSI 845PE MAX. I'll let you know how it goes. :rolleyes:

Hey, I've heard that's a pretty good board. Are you putting the system together today? Let me know what you think of it... ;)

Zwolf[SS]

03-31-2003, 03:17 PM

Hopefully tonight when I get home. Sent the SOYO board back to NE today minus 15% restocking fee and shipping [violin]

slayer[SS]

03-31-2003, 04:07 PM

That sucks. That's one of the things I REALLY hate about buying hardware, is taking a chance like that. It's not your fault the board sucked, why should you have to pay money to send it back? :rolleyes:

I think that's a ridiculous policy, but almost everyplace has it... :(

Thomas

04-01-2003, 04:15 PM

wow....

Goes from Pentium talk, to Radeons, and now to Intel Chipsets:D

Good ole' thread hi-jacking i see:p :banger:

slayer[SS]

04-01-2003, 05:23 PM

Ha, just sounds like a good hardware thread to me... :D

WindsorFox[SS]

04-01-2003, 11:42 PM

Ok, so I had this new flare wrench.....

Oreo[SS]

04-02-2003, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by WindsorFox[SS]

Ok, so I had this new flare wrench.....

Can I use it?

whiplash[SS]

04-02-2003, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by WindsorFox[SS]

Ok, so I had this new flare wrench.....

....and I let oreo borrow it.......

Zwolf[SS]

04-02-2003, 10:37 AM

Well the new motherboard (MSI) is running just fine and has been for almost two days. Memory benchmarks are right on target and I haven't started to tweak anything yet but my 3D marks seem fairly good as well. I'll be loading up all my UT2K3 stuff tonight and hopefully hitting up the DMZ for awhile. I haven't been on the DMZ in two weeks :eek:

slayer[SS]

04-02-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

Well the new motherboard (MSI) is running just fine and has been for almost two days. Memory benchmarks are right on target and I haven't started to tweak anything yet but my 3D marks seem fairly good as well. I'll be loading up all my UT2K3 stuff tonight and hopefully hitting up the DMZ for awhile. I haven't been on the DMZ in two weeks :eek:

Glad to hear the second board is doing you good! I'm hoping mine will be as good when I get it together this weekend! :D

slayer[SS]

04-03-2003, 06:43 PM

Well, I was sick all night last night and didn't get any sleep, so I called in sick today and slept till around 10AM. Dang that felt good!! :D

Even better, since I was home, I put the P4 system together. Up and running fine right now. It feels nice and solid, though not quite as fast as my Athlon system. The only big difference so far is on the internet. My downloads and page loads are MUCH faster, which is kinda weird. Anyway, still have LOTS of testing to do. Only problems thus far are the fact that it locked up while it was installing WinXP once and had to be rebooted. Also, MBM5 shuts the system down immediately upon launch, ever since I tried using Winbond 2 for Sensor 1. Not sure what that is, but I'm uninstalling and reinstalling to see if I can get it fixed. Otherwise, everything is smooth... ;)

Hey Zwolf, what do your Sandra benchies look like on your new system??

Sabrewulf165

04-03-2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

My downloads and page loads are MUCH faster, which is kinda weird.

lol I guess that's why they call it "NETburst" architechture :rolleyes: ;)

slayer[SS]

04-03-2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

lol I guess that's why they call it "NETburst" architechture :rolleyes: ;)

Well, so far that seems like all that's improved. I don't know, but UT2K3 feels about the same, maybe slightly slower. I don't know what else to try, but right now I'd have to say the system is comparable. There's no reason NOT to build a P4 system that's 2.8Ghz or higher, but there's no compelling reason to do so either, at least not from what I see... :xx

Evc

04-03-2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Hehehe... looks like the Zombie Wolf and I are starting a P4 club. Zwolf just ordered a Soyo P4 mobo and I just ordered an Abit BH7, with a P4 2.8Ghz. Gonna see how the other half lives... :p Smaller wallets[violin] :rotfl:

slayer[SS]

04-04-2003, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by Evc

Smaller wallets[violin] :rotfl:

Nope, do your research. At the 2.8Ghz level (2800+ barton), the retail chips and the mobos are comparable. I paid $350 for the CPU a couple weeks ago (which was $15 cheaper then the retail 2800+) and the mobo was $92. Pretty cheap upgrade if you ask me, plus it's nice and fast W/O having to overclock it a single iota. The things I'll definitely point out are the ease of installing the processor / HSF and how quiet the system is, using a 2500RPM fan... ;)

Zwolf[SS]

04-04-2003, 10:25 AM

Slayer, I think your like me in what you thought you'ed see in the difference between similar systems. Since I'm still setting up software and haven't even started to tweak yet. I guess I still don't know what the top end of this setup will be. Also since I went from a Kt266a system with a 1700+ I think that I should probably expect more then say somebody that went from a KT333 and 2000+ system. Since I'm not at home I'll have to give you my Sandra score later, but the memory score for whatever the top of the two numbers are was 2800 something. I think for this chipset anything near 2900 or better is pretty good if I remember right.

Sabrewulf165

04-04-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Nope, do your research. At the 2.8Ghz level (2800+ barton), the retail chips and the mobos are comparable. I paid $350 for the CPU a couple weeks ago (which was $15 cheaper then the retail 2800+) and the mobo was $92. Pretty cheap upgrade if you ask me, plus it's nice and fast W/O having to overclock it a single iota. The things I'll definitely point out are the ease of installing the processor / HSF and how quiet the system is, using a 2500RPM fan... ;)

slayer, i think the point he was making is that the rest of us can't afford high end chips regardless of brand, that's why we have lower end AMD chips, which rule the pricewar in every case ;)

as for the fan, what kind of temps are you getting with a fan that slow? Faster northwoods make just as much heat as their AMD counterparts... although I suppose if you're using an 80mm fan it would be a lot better. I don't know much about retail cpu fans, especially intel's ;)

have you noticed any increase in performance in specific apps due to "intel optimizations"? I've always heard those make a big difference.

Zwolf[SS]

04-04-2003, 11:00 AM

I can attest to the quieter heatsink fan. The boxed processor comes with a standard aluminum finned heatsink and a 80mm 2500rpm fan, it's very quiet. My system temps are 36C and my cpu temp is 40C, but then again I have a very well cooled case and my ambient temp is about 67F. That proc temp btw is using the supplied TIM. I would say that the temps are actually about the same if not slightly lower then the AMD procs. I could get my xp1700 using an SK6 with a Papst 60mm 3200rpm fan down to about 38C at that same room temp using AS II in this same case. But then again it was allot louder too.

slayer[SS]

04-04-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

slayer, i think the point he was making is that the rest of us can't afford high end chips regardless of brand, that's why we have lower end AMD chips, which rule the pricewar in every case ;)

as for the fan, what kind of temps are you getting with a fan that slow? Faster northwoods make just as much heat as their AMD counterparts... although I suppose if you're using an 80mm fan it would be a lot better. I don't know much about retail cpu fans, especially intel's ;)

have you noticed any increase in performance in specific apps due to "intel optimizations"? I've always heard those make a big difference.

Well, so far all I've tested is Sandra, Aquamark, GLVulpine and 3DMark. Out of those, the AMD system has been faster in almost every case. The internet seems quicker and downloads are definitely quicker, but so far that's it. I'll let ya know if I can test more apps. BTW, my temp is around 36C - 39C during average use. I was totally shocked to see that the temp was sitting at 56C when I got out of one game of UT2K3... :eek:

slayer[SS]

04-04-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

Slayer, I think your like me in what you thought you'ed see in the difference between similar systems. Since I'm still setting up software and haven't even started to tweak yet. I guess I still don't know what the top end of this setup will be. Also since I went from a Kt266a system with a 1700+ I think that I should probably expect more then say somebody that went from a KT333 and 2000+ system. Since I'm not at home I'll have to give you my Sandra score later, but the memory score for whatever the top of the two numbers are was 2800 something. I think for this chipset anything near 2900 or better is pretty good if I remember right.

Your memory score's a lot better then mine then. I'm getting right around 2550/2550 using Sandra 2003... :(

Zwolf[SS]

04-04-2003, 08:44 PM

Well I just ran it again and my score was 2453/2386 so it's fallen off. I wasn't gonna say this before , but I'm running WinME on this machine right now. When everything settles out, and Im sure where my system faults lay, I'm gonna douse this drive and install Win2000 Pro. I was just really gun shy after that last motherboard, and Win98SE gave me some fits on it's first install. Since I had a copy of ME sittng here I thought I'd give it a shot. It's really not all that bad actually. One thing for sure is that this motherboard just doesn't have much BIOS wise. Maybe MSI will update it again to open up some more features. I'll run it for now but as long as I know the proc and memory are ok I might end up with another board a few months down the road, you never know.

whiplash[SS]

04-04-2003, 08:49 PM

Is win ME close to Win XP, or is it more along the lines of 2000 or 98?

slayer[SS]

04-04-2003, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

Well I just ran it again and my score was 2453/2386 so it's fallen off. I wasn't gonna say this before , but I'm running WinME on this machine right now. When everything settles out, and Im sure where my system faults lay, I'm gonna douse this drive and install Win2000 Pro. I was just really gun shy after that last motherboard, and Win98SE gave me some fits on it's first install. Since I had a copy of ME sittng here I thought I'd give it a shot. It's really not all that bad actually. One thing for sure is that this motherboard just doesn't have much BIOS wise. Maybe MSI will update it again to open up some more features. I'll run it for now but as long as I know the proc and memory are ok I might end up with another board a few months down the road, you never know.

Interesting that the scores fell off so much. That's quite a bit... :eek:

I've never used ME, but I've heard a lot of bad about it. I'm using XP on this system and it's solid as a rock. I've got NO problems at all and it feels really nice, just slightly slower then I'm used to. I was hoping the Abit board would have more memory tweaking features, but there isn't much. It's supposed to be very good for overclocking, but I just don't feel like pushing this system. I don't want the PCI bus overclocked too much. I didn't have to worry about that on my AMD system, since the nForce2 board has the PCI bus locked... ;)

slayer[SS]

04-04-2003, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by whiplash[SS]

Is win ME close to Win XP, or is it more along the lines of 2000 or 98?

ME was actually in between Win2K and Win98SE. I think it's like a media enhanced version of Win98SE. What do you say Zwolf? :confused:

Zwolf[SS]

04-04-2003, 10:36 PM

From what I know it was the pre-cursor to XP. It is an "enhanced" version of 98se, but it was the first version of Windows without a DOS backbone; In otherwords there is no DOS to boot to in WinME. It's like a bastardised version between a NT Windows and a Win95/98 based Windows. I would guess that WinME was more of a money making "In-between" then a real OS that Microsoft was thinking would be a lomg lasting OS. It's supported, it's recognized as an OS, but the real support is limited. It's also outdated, which is soomething Microsoft planned on. Quite frankly, WindowsXP is a scam. The best OS is probably Win2000. I would say though, that Win98SE is still the best, most stable OS there is for gaming.

Sabrewulf165

04-04-2003, 11:46 PM

My understanding is that 98, 98SE, and ME are all built on one core, where NT, 2000, and XP are all built on another. Not sure about '95, but I think it was a primitive version of the same core that 98 used. ME is definitely a 'tweener... it was the first MS OS with "system restore" which carried over into XP cause it's great for people who don't know what they're doing. It's got some other XP'ish features as well, but like Zwolf said, it's basically a jazzed up '98.

Again, that's my understanding of it all... don't sue me if I'm wrong ;)

whiplash[SS]

04-04-2003, 11:47 PM

I am currently using 2000 and it is very stable to me. Of course, I am not a die hard overclocker either. ;)

I have played with XP over a oreo's house, and it is ok. It would definitly take some time to get use to.

CRASH

04-06-2003, 10:13 AM

When anyone tells me they have a problem with ANYTHING on their system and they are running ME .. I tell them to dump it and go back to 98SE or up to XP. 9 out of 10 times it fixes the problem.

Of the systems in my home, I have 98SE on 5, WIN2K Pro on 2 (dual systems), XP Home on 1 and XP Pro (dual system) on another ... it took a while, but I think I like XP best to date. Was a tough trip getting me to break from 98SE for gaming, but now that I have made the transistion, I am pleased. I also build 3 or 4 high end systems a month for people ... I have opted for XP for them from now on ... much better set up and plug and play.

slayer[SS]

04-06-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by CRASH

When anyone tells me they have a problem with ANYTHING on their system and they are running ME .. I tell them to dump it and go back to 98SE or up to XP. 9 out of 10 times it fixes the problem.

Of the systems in my home, I have 98SE on 5, WIN2K Pro on 2 (dual systems), XP Home on 1 and XP Pro (dual system) on another ... it took a while, but I think I like XP best to date. Was a tough trip getting me to break from 98SE for gaming, but now that I have made the transistion, I am pleased. I also build 3 or 4 high end systems a month for people ... I have opted for XP for them from now on ... much better set up and plug and play.

I agree. I used to think that Win98SE was THE OS for gaming, but then I tried Win2K Pro and I've never gone back. Now that I'm on WinXP Pro, it's even better. Every new game I play runs on Win2K and WinXP just fine. My son has a ton of older kids games and so far only ONE of them doesn't work on XP, using the compatibility tools and all. To me, that's not a bad deal at all. I tend to prefer Win2K a little better still, but XP is growing on me... ;)

slayer[SS]

04-07-2003, 09:21 AM

Well, I just read the review of my mobo at Anandtech (http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1808) and found out that the PCI and AGP busses are both locked, just like on my A7N8X Deluxe mobo. I hadn't intended on overclocking my P4 system, but with this bit of news I figure, why not? :D

The review states that a lot of B0 stepping P4's can hit 160-166Mhz FSB and the C0 can hit closer to 180Mhz FSB. I'd be satisfied with around 155Mhz FSB if I can get it... ;)

slayer[SS]

04-07-2003, 05:35 PM

Well, all I can seem to get is 150Mhz FSB so far. That's not too awful bad, giving me 3.15Ghz. The memory FSB is 187 (or 187x4), so it's pretty speedy. Right now the benchmarks are blowing everything else away... :D

Now all I have to do is test it more for stability... ;)

Zwolf[SS]

04-07-2003, 07:05 PM

I'm running mine at 148FSB=3.10 pretty stable so far. I take it your still running stock cooling like I am? While my 3dmarks (2003) haven't changed much my Sandra marks have improved greatly. My PCI and AGP bus haven't changed any, although my memeory bus has. I'm using Samsung PC3200 memory which seems to be holding it's own. What's your UT2K3 benchmark flyby/botmatch score?

slayer[SS]

04-07-2003, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

I'm running mine at 148FSB=3.10 pretty stable so far. I take it your still running stock cooling like I am? While my 3dmarks (2003) haven't changed much my Sandra marks have improved greatly. My PCI and AGP bus haven't changed any, although my memeory bus has. I'm using Samsung PC3200 memory which seems to be holding it's own. What's your UT2K3 benchmark flyby/botmatch score?

Well, let me check and I'll get back to you... ;)

Okay, let's see:

640x480
227.24 flyby
81.31 botmatch

1024x768
170.73 flyby
78.79 botmatch

1600x1200
77.65 flyby
49.38 botmatch

This was with my system @ 148Mhz FSB (3.1Ghz). Working on testing it for stability... ;)

Zwolf[SS]

04-08-2003, 08:41 AM

I'll let you know tonight. I sorta remember the 1024X768 score being similar to yours.

slayer[SS]

04-08-2003, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

I'll let you know tonight. I sorta remember the 1024X768 score being similar to yours.

I was kinda disappointed that I could only get 148Mhz FSB (185Mhz FSB for the RAM). I was hoping I could hit at least 155Mhz or even 160Mhz, but I wasn't even very close. Oh well, I guess, when I think about it, it's similar to the overclock I have on my AMD system (from 166Mhz to 180Mhz)... ;)

Zwolf[SS]

04-08-2003, 06:27 PM

UT2K3 bench
P4 2.8Ghz @ 3.10

640X480
208 flyby
76 botmatch

1024x768
150 flyby
75 botmatch

1600x1200
67 flyby
47 botmatch

I'd say since you have a Ti4600 and I have a Ti4200, we're pretty close. BTW I'm using the Det 43.45's and everything in UT2K3 set to normal, 32bit. I will say this though, I've been running this machine at this speed for at least forty eight hours stable, I don't think that's all that bad for stock cooling. I would guess with a more aggresive cooling solution you could get this thing to at least 3.5 without much problem.

slayer[SS]

04-08-2003, 08:28 PM

Nice scores Zwolf! ;)

I'm using the older 40.72 dets with everything set Highest in UT2K3, so your system is probably a little faster then mine. Mine has been up and stable for about 28 hours at this speed. I'll let it run for a few more days before I say I'm happy with it, but so far, so good... :D

Zwolf[SS]

04-08-2003, 09:05 PM

I have to say that I'm not at all disappointed in the performance for an upgrade from what I had. I was hoping for a little more right out of the box, but I would say that AMD and Intel are both neck and neck as far as overall performance is concerned. The only thing that I have noticed now that I have a stable platform is that internet app's seem to be a tad better with Intel. I'll be loading up all my Photoshop stuff later this week, it will be interesting to see if filters and other Kia related junk loads any better, although I doubt it. I've been wrong before though, so it will be interesting. Multimedia things like audio and video clips seem about the same only a little faster/better, but I attribute that to proc and memory speed.

slayer[SS]

04-09-2003, 05:25 AM

Yeah, I definitely agree about the internet speed. Other then that, coming from an AXP2600+ I didn't see a huge difference. I think the P4 system feels a little slower in most things, but in games it feels about the same. With it overclocked, it still feels a little slower in windows and most apps, but it feels a little faster in games. I'm gonna have a hard time deciding which system I keep, AMD or Intel... ;)

I have to sell one if I want to get the Radeon 9800 Pro and Lian Li case that I've been looking at... :(

Sabrewulf165

04-09-2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

I have to sell one if I want to get the Radeon 9800 Pro and Lian Li case that I've been looking at... :(

[violin]

;)

slayer[SS]

04-09-2003, 09:28 AM

Yeah, I figured you'd feel bad for me... :p

slayer[SS]

04-09-2003, 06:11 PM

Well, I've got it all the way up to 152Mhz FSB (190Mhz FSB RAM), with the CPU running at 3.19Ghz... ;)

Was unstable at anything higher, but by relaxing the RAM timings a hair, I was able to get it here fairly stable. The CPU is running hotter then I like, but it's not causing any problems so far. I've been able to run 3DMark2K1SE in a loop for half an hour, run all the Sandra tests and play 4 rounds of UT2K3 so far without any errors, reboots, lockups or anything else. I'm thinking I may have to end up getting a third party CPU cooler though...

Zwolf[SS]

04-09-2003, 08:18 PM

I've always been very conservative about my cpu temps. I keep my house at 65f in the winter and no hotter then 74f in the summer. I am a great believer in ambient air temps being the ruler for system temps. I have almost always modded every case I had for better airflow, including this one. So that aside, I have always used a non-stock cooling solution for my cpu, up until now. Right now my system temp is 27c and my cpu temp is 41c. I have no real problem with the system temp but I would like to see my cpu temp in the middle to upper thirties. Given I have a minor overclock of 15Mhz fsb or 2.8 to 3.1 I don't think those temps are enough to warrent anything too far outside of the normal stock hs/f for a two or three Mhz overclock. In otherwords, I certainly wouldn't spend 30-50 dollars on a hs/ fan just to get that extra few Mhz. However, since the 80mm stock fan is fairly slow rpm wise, I would certainly look at a more powerful fan to see if that might be enough. Just a thought....

slayer[SS]

04-10-2003, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

I've always been very conservative about my cpu temps. I keep my house at 65f in the winter and no hotter then 74f in the summer. I am a great believer in ambient air temps being the ruler for system temps. I have almost always modded every case I had for better airflow, including this one. So that aside, I have always used a non-stock cooling solution for my cpu, up until now. Right now my system temp is 27c and my cpu temp is 41c. I have no real problem with the system temp but I would like to see my cpu temp in the middle to upper thirties. Given I have a minor overclock of 15Mhz fsb or 2.8 to 3.1 I don't think those temps are enough to warrent anything too far outside of the normal stock hs/f for a two or three Mhz overclock. In otherwords, I certainly wouldn't spend 30-50 dollars on a hs/ fan just to get that extra few Mhz. However, since the 80mm stock fan is fairly slow rpm wise, I would certainly look at a more powerful fan to see if that might be enough. Just a thought....

Well, temps are definitely my problem. I can get 152Mhz FSB for the CPU to run completely stable, but it runs too hot. My BIOS temp bothers me, because at idle it can jump between 38C and 55C just like that. I couldn't loop 3DMark as long as I wanted, because the system shut itself down. MBM5 read the temp as 60C and the BIOS read it at 65C, which is where I have the thermal shutdown thresh hold set. I'm guessing that the BIOS is wrong, since it fluctuates so badly, and that I need a better cooling solution. I'm going to be reading up on P4 coolers today to see what's recommended. Since I know I can hit 3.19Ghz, I'd like to find a cooling solution that'll let me run at that speed with no heat related problems... ;)

Zwolf[SS]

04-10-2003, 09:03 AM

The temp your reading in the BIOS is almost full load. In other words the cpu is under almost a full load condition when you're in the BIOS.

slayer[SS]

04-10-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

The temp your reading in the BIOS is almost full load. In other words the cpu is under almost a full load condition when you're in the BIOS.

Well, the most I've seen it hit in the BIOS (even with it jumping around like it does), is 55C. Unfortunately, it hit 65C while I was looping 3DMark, which is why it shut down. It's really too bad, because otherwise my system is completely stable at 3.19Ghz. I'm checking on the Abit forum, cause there are quite a few other users thinking there's a problem with the BIOS temp. I heard that another Abit P4 mobo had temps reported incorrectly and a BIOS fix brought the BIOS reading down from 60C to 35C. If the BIOS is correct, it looks like I'll be needing a nice third party HSF if I want to OC.

slayer[SS]

04-17-2003, 09:15 PM

A pic of my board... :D

Zwolf[SS]

04-17-2003, 09:34 PM

Well, It is Orange!!

The Dragon[SS]

04-17-2003, 09:40 PM

Oh, the shame of the dark side
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-17-2003, 09:42 PM

Hehehehehehe... :D

The Dragon[SS]

04-17-2003, 09:46 PM

Go to bed and dream a good dream, then when you awaken it may be an AMD system:D
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-18-2003, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Go to bed and dream a good dream, then when you awaken it may be an AMD system:D
The Dragon

Geeze, I hope not! :p

The Dragon[SS]

04-18-2003, 09:09 AM

Cheeezzzzzeeee, Lost forever. hehehe. Well at least it is an Abit. It looks pretty well like Johns system. I hope you enjoy. Well I guess we are going to have to rename you, lets see, Oh yes, The Dark Side:D :D :D .
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-18-2003, 09:36 AM

Well, I have to say that AMD is still the champ on the low end. If you want to get a processor/mobo, then OC the heck out of it, I'd say that AMD is the way to go. Their low end chips are very inexpensive and still great overclockers. At the 2.5Ghz and higher range, Intel and AMD are comparable. AMD is a little faster for most things and the prices are about the same. Either system would do fine at that level. At the top end, the P4 3.06Ghz seems to reign. It does as well as the AthlonXP 3000+ and overclocks very well. Soon, the 3.0Ghz 800Mhz FSB P4 will hit the streets. Paired with a Canterwood mobo, this will be THE high end solution for a while. That said, it's also a very expensive solution, seeing that most Canterwood mobos will be $200 or more. Newegg has the Asus Canterwood board listed for $260!!! :eek:

This said, I think for most people AMD will continue to be the processor to buy. It's clock for clock faster then the P4 and is less expensive for the most part.

After using both systems for a little while now, I'd say that any enthusiast should be happy with either processor. They both are fast, stable and have a plethora of mature chipsets and motherboards to choose from... ;)

WindsorFox[SS]

04-18-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Cheeezzzzzeeee, Lost forever. hehehe. Well at least it is an Abit. It looks pretty well like Johns system. I hope you enjoy. Well I guess we are going to have to rename you, lets see, Oh yes, The Dark Side:D :D :D .
The Dragon

Dark Slayer[SS] :p :D

The Dragon[SS]

04-18-2003, 09:59 AM

Since my MSI bit the dust yesterday, I dont think it liked the 210 FSB or my memory timings, or my multiplier, but it was a smoking:D .
I have been mulling it over and have been looking at the Intel boards. I also think I am tiring of overclocking and want a good stable system, not slow though. For some reason the NForce dosent appeal to me, and I cant figure it out except the raid part. I like to use the raid for extra IDE connectors, that way I can have each thing on its own cable.

The KT 400's sure dosent do anything for me, and the Kt400a's still have the 35 south bridge and I want too many onboard componants. I intend to disable them and use real hardware, but if anything goes wrong, I can just enable them, while waiting for the replacements. Ashley says I am just too spoiled, my reply is " I have earned it ":) .
By the way, what kind of memory are you using, can you use our DDR?
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-18-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Since my MSI bit the dust yesterday, I dont think it liked the 210 FSB or my memory timings, or my multiplier, but it was a smoking:D .
I have been mulling it over and have been looking at the Intel boards. I also think I am tiring of overclocking and want a good stable system, not slow though. For some reason the NForce dosent appeal to me, and I cant figure it out except the raid part. I like to use the raid for extra IDE connectors, that way I can have each thing on its own cable.

The KT 400's sure dosent do anything for me, and the Kt400a's still have the 35 south bridge and I want too many onboard componants. I intend to disable them and use real hardware, but if anything goes wrong, I can just enable them, while waiting for the replacements. Ashley says I am just too spoiled, my reply is " I have earned it ":) .
By the way, what kind of memory are you using, can you use our DDR?
The Dragon

I'm using Corsair PC3200 XMS RAM at the moment. The one in my system is 512MB. Of course, no matter what board you buy, you should be able to use that RAM. If you're starting over with new mobo and processor, I'd suggest a mobo based on the new i875 chipset (Canterwood). You'll need 2 DIMMs, since it uses dual memory architecture, like the nForce2. Then put in one of the new 800Mhz FSB 3Ghz P4 processors and you'll be flyin with no need to overclock! :D

Asus and Abit both have Canterwood mobos due out anytime now. Anandtech did a review here (http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.html?i=1814) of the Asus board, which has numbers from the Abit board as well. Personally, I'm waiting for a full review of the Abit board. I'm so impressed with my BH7, I think the Abit i875 board is what I'm going to get... ;)

If you don't want to stray into the dark side with me, then overcome your dislike of the nForce2 boards. The Asus A7N8X Deluxe I had was a VERY nice mobo and would work well for you, overclocked or not. :cool:

The Dragon[SS]

04-18-2003, 01:06 PM

I have 2 sticks of Twinmoss Winbond 3200 and they are 512mb each. but the only vid card I have is that spit, spit, ATI 9700 all in wonder. I dont have a spare Nividia card at the moment.
Here is what I want, onboard Graphics, sound, Raid, 10/100 nic but then I also want somebody else to pay for it:D . Now we can discuss what I can have:D .
I was looking at an MSI that is coming out with this chipset.

That Asus might do good, when can I expect it. Dont worry Ill pay the shipping charges:D . Gives me a good idea, I might be able to get another KT333 used from the boards and Ill bet it wont be that expensive. I liked that board. Do you realize how hard it was to get those slk 800a's on this gigabyte board. I put the coolmod fans on them and they are all lit up and change colors. I have a 120mm all lit up on the top also. It looks like a house of ill repute:D .
The Dragon

WindsorFox[SS]

04-18-2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Since my MSI bit the dust yesterday, I dont think it liked the 210 FSB or my memory timings, or my multiplier, but it was a smoking:D .

The Dragon

Smoking!!?? That's a sure sign to back off on the multiplier! :p :D

The Dragon[SS]

04-18-2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by WindsorFox[SS]

Smoking!!?? That's a sure sign to back off on the multiplier! :p :D

Now I know what I did wrong, I thought you increased it when it smoked:banger: .
The Dragon

The Dragon[SS]

04-18-2003, 05:01 PM

Jeez fellows, I didnt make yall mad did I?
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-18-2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Jeez fellows, I didnt make yall mad did I?
The Dragon

Nope, just a little busy today... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

04-18-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Nope, just a little busy today... ;)
Okey, Ill be kind and leave you bee, thanks for the advice
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-18-2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Okey, Ill be kind and leave you bee, thanks for the advice
The Dragon

Hehehe... wasn't a warning, just a bad excuse... :p

The Dragon[SS]

04-18-2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Hehehe... wasn't a warning, just a bad excuse... :p

I know, I just figured you was working on the servers:) . I know how time consuming they can be. I am just sitting here thinking that I am going to have to redo these slk 800a's and they were such a pain to get on the first time. I might just put volcano 9's on here instead. Plus I might get 2 XP2100 B revisions.

I plan on taking up our discussion on the Intel chipset later on :D.
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-18-2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

I know, I just figured you was working on the servers:) . I know how time consuming they can be. I am just sitting here thinking that I am going to have to redo these slk 800a's and they were such a pain to get on the first time. I might just put volcano 9's on here instead. Plus I might get 2 XP2100 B revisions.

I plan on taking up our discussion on the Intel chipset later on :D.
The Dragon

Anytime my friend... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

04-20-2003, 12:07 AM

I have come to the conclusion that most P4 Boards are not very rich in extras like our AMD boards are but they are really high in the numbers but not in actual real time work. So I guess I will stay in the light.:D :D :D
The Dragon

CRASH

04-20-2003, 12:23 AM

Originally posted by The Dragon

I have come to the conclusion that most P4 Boards are not very rich in extras like our AMD boards ...

Keep doing your research. Not sure how anyone could be so far off the mark on this. When will you "My DICK is bigger than your DICK" guys figure out just how close the playing field is today? At least for now ...

The Dragon[SS]

04-20-2003, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by CRASH

Keep doing your research. Not sure how anyone could be so far off the mark on this. When will you "My DICK is bigger than your DICK" guys figure out just how close the playing field is today? At least for now ...

Perhaps I put it wrong. Dollar for dollar, the boards you see for intel and amd, if you compair the features, I can get a board that has Raid, onbord sound (of great quiality, although I wont use it)
rounded cables, digi doc, key chain and other extras for $158.00.
I dont think, although I could be wrong, I can find an Intel board for that, with those features.
I think or feel that the numbers on these tests are just a Pe*ker
contest. Real world use, I think now and in the next year, they are going to be so close its pitiful. Intel claiming 800mhz boards (really 400mhz boards) and Amd claiming 400mhz boards and yes I know about the double memory claim. The NForce 2 and the NForce 2 revision 2 claimimg the same as Intel.
Here is another factor, I have a 3000 XP barton sitting in a drawer if I go to Intel I will Have to buy a Chip equal to that, If I stay with AMD, I can use my chip, memory and coolers. I also dont feel that we use all of what we have, unless folding or seti.
Poorly explained but I am sure you get the idea. I have owned Intel and AMD and both are stable (after fully setup), so why spend more for the same.
The Dragon

CRASH

04-20-2003, 02:16 AM

Yeah ... not getting that key chain is a deal breaker ain't it? :rolleyes:

The Intel stuff is still a little more expensive ... but not buy much anymore. I have always found Intel a more stable game platform and while I owned SimHQ did a lot of system tests and reviews and have MANY systems of both here (all high end high qulity systems) and play my sims on an Intel and type on forums on an AMD. I have two very stout and solid AMD systems that we game heavily on here and niether have a problem (aside from me ignorantly putting SB Live cards in them and having to rip them out and toss them out the window later). But I still find Intel systems (at least P4s with RDRAM) excel in flight sims, what I play primarily.

While it will be a bit pricie at first, the 800FSB is looking like a very fast system. I am putting one together soon (I refuse to buy a 3GHz chip tho ... they need to bump it to at least 3.5 before the upgrade will make enough sense to me) and may even cross over to the dark side and try a 9800 PRO. I still hate nVIdia for what they did to 3dfx and figured it would only be a matter of time before I tried an ATI again (after years of garlic and cross wearing to keep them and their abysmal drivers at bay). I am not sure AMDs plans will be able to readily counter the P4 800FSB systems for while and will fall behind for a brief time in the speed wars.

Side note, yeah you can find an Intel based board with those features for around the same price ... not cutting edge and with bandwidth choaking DDR instead of RDRAM support, but a board that is being used to compare Intel to AMD chips in reviews. Sort of unfair if you ask me ... give a chip a 533 FSB and stick 333Mhz ram with it ... sort of defeats the purpose and skews the results.

slayer[SS]

04-20-2003, 09:06 AM

Dragon, if you have a Barton core XP3000+ sitting in a drawer at home, then you definitely want to try an nForce2 board... ;) No VIA or SiS board will come close to the nForce2 board in performance. Plus, as you said, they come with a ton of nice extras. You can pick up the A7N8X Deluxe Asus board from Newegg for under $145 :D

The Dragon[SS]

04-20-2003, 12:32 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CRASH

[B]Yeah ... not getting that key chain is a deal breaker ain't it? :rolleyes:

I was hoping you would catch that, I like to have laughed myself to death while typing it:D . I for one could care less whiether it is Intel or AMD but we have a guy here that is a die hard Intel person ( now we really like and respect this guy but he gets all upset and agrivated about the Intel vs AMD thing) and we always ask him to show us a Intel board that comes with a key chain:D :D :D . Another way we get him started is to take a work unit and put it on his machine and then put the same work unit on a smaller AMD system and time the results, and he goes ballistic when the AMD finishes first. We never bring up the fact that each has its strong and weak points ( that would spoil the fun).
I have mixed feelings about Rdram (although I am no expert on it), but it seems to me that they never optimized the boards for it, nor the code for it, sort of like the Corsair XMS thing. I know the last time I looked at it, it was overpriced, but that could have changed.
I would have liked to have had this conversation 6 to 10yrs ago. Slayer or Oreo can explane. Iwould like to congratulate you on the sensability of your arguments without getting into left field.
If I went Intel it wood definately be the Canterwood chipset. But I dont think it would be very sensible for me cost wise, if going AMD all I have to buy is the board. Plus they dont have enough boards out yet to have a real choice of features. This is the boards I was talking about with no features, the Canterwood boards. That is yet, the future is wide open:). But I dont know how fast I will buy for I still have this Dually I am on now.

I have had excellent luck with Sound blaster and M audio revolution. I like the revolution better for it agrees with the dragon naturally speaking better.
The Dragon

CRASH

04-20-2003, 01:02 PM

ALways fun to debate with someone that keeps their cool. I was heavily an Intel fan until the T-Birds came out ... AMD got their act together and have been on a roll ever since. The competition is good ... keeps both companies pushing harder and keeps prices lower. To be honest, the only thing I really am not overly fond of is the amount of fans I need to keep my AMD system cool (water cooling is not something I want to mess with ... water and electricity in the same box ... especially one that gets moved a lot for LAN meets just makes me a whee bit nervous ... waiting for the liquid nitrogen cooling systems 8`/ ). My dual MP1800+ is a loud mofo (but not as loud as my old Dual XEON box ... that thing had enough fans that it would suck a credit card reciept off the floor from three feet in front of the box.
:wow:

Most review sites and mags also test things that really do not display the actual performance of a system ... I HATE the damn QUAKE test. I found that machines that run QUAKE well do not necessarily run flight sims or diving sims well. (stick a high end OPENGL card in any machine and it will score high in QUAKE). Becasue of thsoe tests, I found that for what I play, P4s with RDRAM (for now) seem to be the best suited for my needs. I also love the Office 2003 tests ... like I give a damn that it opens the window .25 seconds faster ... come on ... give me a break.

All that being said, I will be updgrading my P4 to a new 800FSB soon adn my daughters 1.2 gig T-Bird will get an XP2200+ or better in the next few weeks. My son has an XP1900+ I have the dual MP1800+, my wife is on a P4 1.6, my file server is a 800EB and I have a dual Xeon as a DHCP server and app runner ... (the old K7 finally lost its hard drive) ... I got enough of both around here that it is REALLY tough to be too loyal to one or the other ...

Oh yeah ... gotta keep teh arguements sensible ... I have a feeling if I pulled out the Molecular Northbridge with Nuclear Turbo Boost on my Intel board blows away the Squirrel cage driven PCI bridge on your AMD .... ya just might have http://www.buddyboys.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bsflag.gif on me.

B-B

slayer[SS]

04-20-2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CRASH

[B]I have mixed feelings about Rdram (although I am no expert on it), but it seems to me that they never optimized the boards for it, nor the code for it, sort of like the Corsair XMS thing. I know the last time I looked at it, it was overpriced, but that could have changed.

Rambus RDRAM failed for four major reasons. First of all, most people hate Rambus the company because of their background. There was no way in HELL I was gonna touch anything made by that company. Secondly, the memory started out WAY too expensive, plus while it offered the best bandwidth, it also had much worse latency then DDR RAM. The last reason was that Intel tried pushing it down everyone's throats. The ONLY RAM you could use with a P4 when it came our was RDRAM. Computer enthusiasts like having a choice about what they use. Even when Intel offered boards that used different RAM, it was only SDRAM to begin with, with was way behind the DDR RAM that was prevalent on the AMD side of the biz. Now that Intel has cut the ties with Rambus and we have a DDR based chipset that outperforms Rambus, I don't see much of a future for that company... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

04-20-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Dragon, if you have a Barton core XP3000+ sitting in a drawer at home, then you definitely want to try an nForce2 board... ;) No VIA or SiS board will come close to the nForce2 board in performance. Plus, as you said, they come with a ton of nice extras. You can pick up the A7N8X Deluxe Asus board from Newegg for under $145 :D
I have been looking at that board and the Zenth board. The thing that is putting me off is this Sata thing. In order to use the raid you have to have Sata (if I understand correctly) They have some pre boards out with the 400a chipset and the new 37 south bridge that are beating the Nforce but Nividia is releasing the revision 2 soon to counter this. Always something around the coner, that is very interesting. So you buy now. I might go ahead and buy and sell it when the choices get better in the Canterwood boards. I never know. with the way my mind works now. I have the extra Coolmaster 110 case, 2-512 Twinmoss 3200 winbond memory sticks, the 9700 Pro All in wonder, 2- 200 gig Maxter drives, M audio revolution Sound Card. I also have a 430 true power power supply, plus the 3000 Barton. So I am close.
The Dragon

WindsorFox[SS]

04-20-2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Rambus RDRAM failed for four major reasons. First of all, most people hate Rambus the company because of their background. There was no way in HELL I was gonna touch anything made by that company.

???? And what are these keychains I'm hearing about??

The Dragon[SS]

04-20-2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by WindsorFox[SS]

???? And what are these keychains I'm hearing about??

Ohhhhh no you dont, you cannot have the Chaintech Key chain:D .
The Dragon

WindsorFox[SS]

04-21-2003, 11:12 AM

Ah, yes the GoldenFlame is a cool looking board, but I don't think it had all the bells and whistles my Asus has. Though I would like to have gotten an Asus keychain... :D

The Dragon[SS]

04-21-2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by WindsorFox[SS]

Ah, yes the GoldenFlame is a cool looking board, but I don't think it had all the bells and whistles my Asus has. Though I would like to have gotten an Asus keychain... :D

Dont go confusing me more than I am, what bells and whistles does Asus have? All the ones I have found are pretty well stripped except for sound.
The Dragon

WindsorFox[SS]

04-22-2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Dont go confusing me more than I am, what bells and whistles does Asus have? All the ones I have found are pretty well stripped except for sound.
The Dragon

My A7N8X DeLux has everything except RAID and on board video. It has 2 net cards too.

slayer[SS]

04-22-2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by WindsorFox[SS]

My A7N8X DeLux has everything except RAID and on board video. It has 2 net cards too.

Well, it doesn't have PATA RAID, but it does have SATA RAID... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

04-22-2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by WindsorFox[SS]

My A7N8X DeLux has everything except RAID and on board video. It has 2 net cards too.

Darn Braggards:D , but does it have 2 IDE plugs:D ? And a key chain :D.
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-23-2003, 08:37 PM

Well, I got my fans and HSF from CrazyPC yesterday. Didn't have time to mess with the fans, but I did get the HSF mounted today. That was a bit weird, as their clamping method was a little strange. The instructions actually made it more difficult then just eyeballing it would have been... :rolleyes:

Anyway, I installed it (after putting ASII on the copper plug that would be making contact with the CPU) and fired it up. I honestly can't tell a huge difference, though I can say that the new HSF is only slightly louder then the old HSF. That's nice anyway. According to the WinBond Hardware Doctor that came with the mobo, it gets up to about 52C after an hour of looping 3DMark. It's about the same after a couple rounds of UT2K3. That's with it running at 3.1Ghz (148x22). That's a little cooler then the old HSF was cooling at max temps. The funny thing is that it seems to run hotter at idle.

In any event, I plan to install the new fans this weekend and we'll see if I can get a couple degrees cooler still. I'd like to see the temps stay below 50C at a high.

I do have a question. The copper plug on this HSF is the only part of the HSF making contact with the CPU. That leaves a little area around the edge of the CPU that isn't making contact with the HS. My question is, should I have used a thicker coating of ASII all over the CPU to bridge that gap? I figured that I'd only put it on the plug, since that's the only part actually making contact on the CPU. I wasn't sure, but it seems okay. Anyone have any thoughts?

Zwolf[SS]

04-23-2003, 08:57 PM

As far as how much AS you need to apply. The more the worse, it will actually start to act as an insulator and your heat transfer will be worse, The only point of using any thermal compound is to fill in the micro grooves that are left on the heatsink and cpu after they have been manufacturerd. That's why people lap heatsinks, in order to make a more perfect union between the HS and the CPU. The Idea is to apply the thermal paste/compound, remove the excess, and re-mate the two. With as little thermal paste/compound as possible. The copper core should by all rights coupled with a higher rpm fan be enough of a change from the stock hsf to be noteworthy. If not, then you need to look at ambient air temp, case placement and airflow. Otherwise, no matter how godd a sink you get, and no matter how powerful the fan, your temps will only vary slightly from the stock cooling solution. Air cooling is a big package and is not as easy to achive as water cooling . The days of thinking you can overclok a Celeron 300 to 600 are over unless you have everything set up just right. I've been in contact with more then one HS manufacturer over the years and the biggest thing they stress is case placement and over all airflow. Think about it.

slayer[SS]

04-24-2003, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]

As far as how much AS you need to apply. The more the worse, it will actually start to act as an insulator and your heat transfer will be worse, The only point of using any thermal compound is to fill in the micro grooves that are left on the heatsink and cpu after they have been manufacturerd. That's why people lap heatsinks, in order to make a more perfect union between the HS and the CPU. The Idea is to apply the thermal paste/compound, remove the excess, and re-mate the two. With as little thermal paste/compound as possible. The copper core should by all rights coupled with a higher rpm fan be enough of a change from the stock hsf to be noteworthy. If not, then you need to look at ambient air temp, case placement and airflow. Otherwise, no matter how godd a sink you get, and no matter how powerful the fan, your temps will only vary slightly from the stock cooling solution. Air cooling is a big package and is not as easy to achive as water cooling . The days of thinking you can overclok a Celeron 300 to 600 are over unless you have everything set up just right. I've been in contact with more then one HS manufacturer over the years and the biggest thing they stress is case placement and over all airflow. Think about it.

Yeah, that's why I got new fans for the case. The ones that are in there now are very quiet, but they don't push much air. The ones that I ordered are around 35CFM, which should be fine. I'm hoping that by adding these fans over the weekend, I'll see an even bigger decrease in my top end temps... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

04-24-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Yeah, that's why I got new fans for the case. The ones that are in there now are very quiet, but they don't push much air. The ones that I ordered are around 35CFM, which should be fine. I'm hoping that by adding these fans over the weekend, I'll see an even bigger decrease in my top end temps... ;)

Slayer
I Had real severe heat problems and could not figure them out with my 1040 B case. First I put a window kit in, then I put little strips of papper tissue papper in, every where, 1/8 inch wide by 3" long. I found my problem quickly. I had too much air in some places, nothing in other places. Like you I had gone to screamer fans.
I first took my heatsink off slk800A, scraped the excess artic silver off, put one slow moving 120mm fan out the top, my temps went down 6 degrees C, I added a slow moving 120 to the side door and unplugged 2 80mm, my temps dropped again, I replaced the screaming fans with quit fans and it dropped 1 C. I put reostats on all my fans and kept adjusting untill all the ribbons moved except the bottom LH 4" X 6"W. Now you have to lean next to the case to hear it:D and my temps are down 10C all told.
Good luck
The Dragon

Oh the first drop was at idle and the second temp is under load, I droped 15C at idle and that is reading taken off probes.

slayer[SS]

04-24-2003, 11:24 AM

Wow, very nice Dragon. Looks like I have a LOT more playin around to do before I have it all figured out for this case. Oh well, gives me something to do... :p

slayer[SS]

04-26-2003, 02:31 PM

Well, I installed a blue LED fan in the back that's pulling out air at a higher rate and between that and the new HSF my temps are a good 4C - 5C cooler. I even got the front USB connected and tied back all the cabling so that it looks pretty neat inside.

I'm now running my 2.8Ghz P4 at 3.2Ghz, which beats my old AMD rig in just about every benchmark now. It's running nice and stable and the heat isn't too bad. I think I'm going to run this rig like this for a while, until mid summer or so, then see what I want to do. I'd love to get a canterwood chipset mobo, plus two 512MB DDR sticks and a Radeon 9800, but I think I'll wait and see how things shake out. The canterwood board I want is $250, which is a little steep for a mobo. I think I'll wait a bit, to see what the NV35 looks like and until the price of the canterwood boards go down a little. Something tells me they'll be under $200 before the end of summer.

Right now the rig is running very nicely. Fast, stable and not hot enough to cause problems. With the cabling tied back and everything, the system also looks very nice. I think I need a 12" blue cold cathode to complete my system and then I'll be good for a couple months... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

04-26-2003, 03:13 PM

slayer
It sounds to me, that you have it pretty well together. That makes me real happy.
Now, get over here and do mine:D , I'm getting jealous!B-B
i really hope you enjoy that system, even though it is on the dark side:D .
The dragon

slayer[SS]

04-26-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

slayer
It sounds to me, that you have it pretty well together. That makes me real happy.
Now, get over here and do mine:D , I'm getting jealous!B-B
i really hope you enjoy that system, even though it is on the dark side:D .
The dragon

I'm loving this system... :D

I can DEFINITELY say that the AMD processors are MUCH better clock for clock, but this thing, at 3.2Ghz is just plain smokin!! :cool:

The Dragon[SS]

04-26-2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

I'm loving this system... :D

I can DEFINITELY say that the AMD processors are MUCH better clock for clock, but this thing, at 3.2Ghz is just plain smokin!! :cool:

Micheal and Bill are having a race AMD & Intel both are 2800. Bill is having heat problem with his Intel and cant get as high as Micheal. Both have Coolmaster cases and modded the same but Micheal is cheating like heck because he has Ashley helping him. He is 200MHZ over Bill and ribbing him to death. I thought I would take my case door up to his house and do the tissue papper trick and see if I couldnt get his Intel cooled down a little.

We are back in Court over Ashley again so she is not allowed over here for now. She hasnt been allowed over here for a month now and possibly a couple more months. All we are doing is making lawyers rich ( well I am, the state payes his). I bought him off last time and I know thats what he wants again, but no way.
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-26-2003, 07:07 PM

Sorry to hear about all your troubles Dragon... :(

The Dragon[SS]

04-26-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

Sorry to hear about all your troubles Dragon... :(

Ahhhh no problem, just the lower class of my wifes kinfolk looking for hand outs. I just thought I would explane why Ashley is not helping me . She wants too but she is fobbided.
The Dragon
T

slayer[SS]

04-26-2003, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Ahhhh no problem, just the lower class of my wifes kinfolk looking for hand outs. I just thought I would explane why Ashley is not helping me . She wants too but she is fobbided.
The Dragon
T

Well, I hope things get straightened out... ;)

slayer[SS]

04-27-2003, 04:17 PM

Here's a peak inside the Intel box :D

slayer[SS]

04-27-2003, 04:18 PM

With the glow... :cool:

slayer[SS]

04-27-2003, 04:18 PM

Now, hopefully on Wed. or so I'll get my Cold Cathode and I'll be done with this for a while (if you know me, it'll be a SHORT while)... :p

The Dragon[SS]

04-27-2003, 04:47 PM

Velly, Velly nice :D . I hope it turns out the way you want. I just RMAed my Soyo board and hope to get my RMA number on my KT333 soon. I like the case you have and it is pretty neat.
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

04-27-2003, 05:02 PM

Thank you sir! I spent a lot of time getting the wires pulled back and tied down. I didn't do a perfect job, but they're out of the way and shouldn't affect the airflow. I love the case. For the price, I think it's one of the best cases I've had experience with... ;)

slayer[SS]

05-01-2003, 09:01 AM

Here is a shot of the system with the cold cathode I put in. This shot it with the lights on and using the flash. I think it looks nice, but I need to clean the wiring up a bit... ;)

slayer[SS]

05-01-2003, 09:03 AM

A little blurry, but here's a shot to show off the lighting... :D

The Dragon[SS]

05-01-2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

A little blurry, but here's a shot to show off the lighting... :D

Ok, enough is enough, now cough up how to get a photo into a post:D . Make it simple and I will be using a 3 1/2 floppy ( thats what my camera uses )
ancient

slayer[SS]

05-01-2003, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Ok, enough is enough, now cough up how to get a photo into a post:D . Make it simple and I will be using a 3 1/2 floppy ( thats what my camera uses )
ancient

It's simple. See below your post where there's a box that says attach file, with a browse button next to it? All you have to do is click on browse and point it to the file you want to display. Keep in mind there's a size limitation of 102k... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

05-01-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

It's simple. See below your post where there's a box that says attach file, with a browse button next to it? All you have to do is click on browse and point it to the file you want to display. Keep in mind there's a size limitation of 102k... ;)

I thank you very kindly Sir.:D Now I have to find my camera,LOL.
The Dragon

Evc

05-04-2003, 10:56 PM

I finally saw what a P4 chip looks like, yes it is small, but its surely not "fancier" then a XP, I think the XP chips look slick, and the P4.. well... its nothing special to look at.

Updated prices:

XP3000+ - $317
Pee4 3.06 - $380

Nice $60 difference there. Now when its cheaper then a XP, maybe, JUST maybe, I'll get one.

Ive converted many people to go from Intel to AMD, and they all have been very happy with their XP based systems.

demonx

05-04-2003, 11:15 PM

Im personally thinking of going Intel, if nothing else to get rid of the damn noise and heat!!!
Nothing like my room being a good 10 degrees higher than the rest of the house when my PC is on.:(

might sell of the K7NILSR board, along with an XP2000+ and pick up an intel setup.:D

CRASH

05-04-2003, 11:23 PM

Hmmm ... never really considered what it LOOKS like ... it is what it can do for me that counts.

I have built many an ugly damn off road vehicle in my life ... not much to look at, but they tended to perform their intended purpose EXCEPTIONALLY well.

Just love people who "convert" others. Some form of evangelical thing going on here? Can you just lay hands on an AMD box and magically quiet them down too? :rolleyes:

slayer[SS]

05-05-2003, 05:42 AM

Unfortunately, the top end P4 chips tend to run as hot, or hotter then comparable AMD chips. My 2.8Ghz chip, running at 3.2Ghz idles at 35C but shoots up to 51C - 52C when playing UT2K3. BTW, I have very good airflow in this Lian Li case and a good 3rd party HSF on the CPU, with ASII. It's the processor, not the system itself. I will say though that my Intel system is slightly quieter, though you can buy the same cooler and fans for an AMD system and cool just as well, so it's a moot point there.

Demonx, if you plan to go Intel, make sure you get a good Canterwood chipset mobo (like the Abit IC7-G) and an 800Mhz FSB CPU. There will be more of a selection by the end of this month for those CPU's.

Whiplash, it's true that the P4 is back to being more expensive then the comparable AMD chips. When I bought my P4, it was $349 for the retail package, as opposed to $380 for a retail Barton core XP2800+. It was enough of a difference for me to give the P4 a shot and I'm glad I did.

I used to always say, AMD is much better then Intel. That's still true. Clock for clock the AthlonXP is the best damn CPU around. It beats the shorts off a comparably clocked P4. However, the P4 is a great CPU and is pretty fast as well. The "feel" of the two systems are comparable, even if the AthlonXP beats the P4 in the benchmarks. At 3.2Ghz, my P4 beats the Barton 3000+ in most benchmarks and it cost less, that's good enough reason for me to have kept it. If you want a very fast, inexpensive system, then AMD is the way to go, all the way. If you want the absolute fastest platform and can spend a little more, the 800Mhz FSB P4 with a Canterwood chipset mobo just cannot be beat, at least at this time... ;)

Sabrewulf165

05-11-2003, 04:02 PM

WT, are you still bragging about your rich-man's computer? ;)

slayer[SS]

05-11-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Sabrewulf165

WT, are you still bragging about your rich-man's computer? ;)

You bet I am!! :p

Actually, I was all set to buy an Abit IC7-G, 1GB DDR RAM, a 3.0Ghz 800Mhz FSB CPU and a Radeon 9800 Pro, but I've decided to wait, possibly until the end of summer. I'm so impressed with the speed, stability and looks of this computer, I don't want to do anything else to it right now... :eek:

Oreo[SS]

05-11-2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]

You bet I am!! :p

Actually, I was all set to buy an Abit IC7-G, 1GB DDR RAM, a 3.0Ghz 800Mhz FSB CPU and a Radeon 9800 Pro, but I've decided to wait, possibly until the end of summer. I'm so impressed with the speed, stability and looks of this computer, I don't want to do anything else to it right now... :eek:

Ok, then that means that in the long run the Intel turned out to be cheaper.

The Dragon[SS]

05-19-2003, 11:32 PM

Okey, have you checked out this board GA-8KNXP or the upcoming GA-8KNXP ultra, what do you think?

The Dragon

CRASH

05-19-2003, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Actually, I was all set to buy an Abit IC7-G, 1GB DDR RAM, a 3.0Ghz 800Mhz FSB CPU and a Radeon 9800 Pro, but I've decided to wait, possibly until the end of summer.

Just got the board ... what a wizbang box of GEEGAWS!!!! (Who said that Intel based boards don't have a lot of bells and whistles? Oh yeah ... no key chain ... but I got an ABIT case badge! :D ) ... plan 1 Gig of ULTRA DDR433 (I plan a 3.2 CPU and expect to get 3.6 to 3.8 out of it so I want teh extra head room on the ram ) and my first ATI card in YEARS .. a 9700 PRO .. I hear they are faster than the 9800's so far. But I have a rather expensive vacation coming up in June and if I dropped over a grand more before then .. I may get shot! 8`/

slayer[SS]

05-20-2003, 05:36 AM

Originally posted by CRASH
Just got the board ... what a wizbang box of GEEGAWS!!!! (Who said that Intel based boards don't have a lot of bells and whistles? Oh yeah ... no key chain ... but I got an ABIT case badge! :D ) ... plan 1 Gig of ULTRA DDR433 (I plan a 3.2 CPU and expect to get 3.6 to 3.8 out of it so I want teh extra head room on the ram ) and my first ATI card in YEARS .. a 9700 PRO .. I hear they are faster than the 9800's so far. But I have a rather expensive vacation coming up in June and if I dropped over a grand more before then .. I may get shot! 8`/

Sounds sweet dude, let us know what you think when you get that bad boy together... :D

The Dragon[SS]

05-20-2003, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by CRASH
Just got the board ... what a wizbang box of GEEGAWS!!!! (Who said that Intel based boards don't have a lot of bells and whistles? Oh yeah ... no key chain ... but I got an ABIT case badge! :D ) /

If it dont have a Key chain---send it back:D . Doggone cheap junk:D ,but then, I dont think the GA-8KNXP has one either, darn cheap Intel junk:D . You guys arent talking to me anymore. I got some questions for you. And definately let us know if you fell in love or not with that chipset and processor.
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

05-20-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by The Dragon
If it dont have a Key chain---send it back:D . Doggone cheap junk:D ,but then, I dont think the GA-8KNXP has one either, darn cheap Intel junk:D . You guys arent talking to me anymore. I got some questions for you. And definately let us know if you fell in love or not with that chipset and processor.
ancient

What questions do you have? I'll still talk to ya... :D

The Dragon[SS]

05-20-2003, 02:08 PM

I was asking your opinion of the GA-8KNXP . What do you see the drawbacks are and what are the pluses:D . Also why is internet Explorer opening to a 2" square instead of full page when you hit a link? Been aggrivating me for a week.
Tell him to demand a keychain with that board.:)
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

05-20-2003, 02:42 PM

Well, if you need the onboard SCSI and other features, it looks like a pretty decent board. I'd personally recommend the Abit board myself, but the Gigabyte seems like it would do well also. Here's a decent review (http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/articles.hwz?cid=6&aid=706&page=1) of that board BTW.

About the IE window, I dunno, I have the same problem... :p

The Dragon[SS]

05-20-2003, 03:07 PM

Thats the Ultra, I was thinking of the normal board, no SCSI, What I liked about it was the fact it has Pata Raid and Sata Raid. plus it has reg Pata drive plus SATA hookup also. I dont know what they mean by 400 DDR memory tho. I have 3200 Twinmos WinBond memory and 3200 Cosair memory, although the winbond tears the Cosair up, and cheaper too. Now if I am correct the 3200 is 400mhz memory. I hate Sata with a passion, well now I do, but next year when the kinks are out I might love it.
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

05-20-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon
Thats the Ultra, I was thinking of the normal board, no SCSI, What I liked about it was the fact it has Pata Raid and Sata Raid. plus it has reg Pata drive plus SATA hookup also. I dont know what they mean by 400 DDR memory tho. I have 3200 Twinmos WinBond memory and 3200 Cosair memory, although the winbond tears the Cosair up, and cheaper too. Now if I am correct the 3200 is 400mhz memory. I hate Sata with a passion, well now I do, but next year when the kinks are out I might love it.
The Dragon

Looks like it would be a very solid board to have tempt you to the dark side... :D

The Dragon[SS]

05-20-2003, 04:32 PM

I have mulled this board over since I accidently found it while looking for a Bios update for my gig dually. But then I have to realize that I have 3 - 333 boards coming in from RMA annd what am I going to do with them? I dont want to just toss them. Doggone decisions, and with little IQ that hurts.
The Dragon

slayer[SS]

05-20-2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon
I have mulled this board over since I accidently found it while looking for a Bios update for my gig dually. But then I have to realize that I have 3 - 333 boards coming in from RMA annd what am I going to do with them? I dont want to just toss them. Doggone decisions, and with little IQ that hurts.
The Dragon

Well, make use of what you've got, that's for sure. Either that or sell them on Ebay... :p

The Dragon[SS]

05-25-2003, 12:29 PM

Slayer
Since my boards have not come back from the manufacture, I am still piddling around and have come across five sites that recommend you not buy the new chipset.
Instead "chipsets adds up to $40, plus the price of a motherboard. Consumers should therefore choose the cheaper 865PE board - ECC memory detection is hardly a convincing sales feature. " They say to buy "MSI" and the 865PE chipset. Now. three of these sites I don't pay too much attention to but one of the places is a form where some of Intel engineers hang out. Even the Intel engineers gave the same recommendation about chipset and board manufacture.

I was wondering what you and Oreo thought about this? uhOh, I forgot to send Oreo a private message about another subject we had going. As soon as I send this, I am going to have to get that private message off.
The dragon

slayer[SS]

05-25-2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon
Slayer
Since my boards have not come back from the manufacture, I am still piddling around and have come across five sites that recommend you not buy the new chipset.
Instead "chipsets adds up to $40, plus the price of a motherboard. Consumers should therefore choose the cheaper 865PE board - ECC memory detection is hardly a convincing sales feature. " They say to buy "MSI" and the 865PE chipset. Now. three of these sites I don't pay too much attention to but one of the places is a form where some of Intel engineers hang out. Even the Intel engineers gave the same recommendation about chipset and board manufacture.

I was wondering what you and Oreo thought about this? uhOh, I forgot to send Oreo a private message about another subject we had going. As soon as I send this, I am going to have to get that private message off.
The dragon

Well, I've read quite a bit about it and have come to the conclusion that, if you want the absolute best performance, you bite the bullet and buy the i875P chipset based boards. With the ECC memory ability and PAT, plus a tiny bit more performance, that's THE top end. These are cherry picked chipsets that are going to consistently OC better and run better then anything else. However, if you DO end up going with the i865PE chipset, you'll still be head and shoulders above the i845PE chipset and the speed will only be a few percentage points behind the i875P boards. Myself, I'll spend the extra money. If you're looking for the best price/performace, go with the i865PE... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

05-25-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Well, I've read quite a bit about it and have come to the conclusion that, if you want the absolute best performance, you bite the bullet and buy the i875P chipset based boards. With the ECC memory ability and PAT, plus a tiny bit more performance, that's THE top end. These are cherry picked chipsets that are going to consistently OC better and run better then anything else. However, if you DO end up going with the i865PE chipset, you'll still be head and shoulders above the i845PE chipset and the speed will only be a few percentage points behind the i875P boards. Myself, I'll spend the extra money. If you're looking for the best price/performace, go with the i865PE... ;)

I don't think I made myself clear, this was a discussion about overclocking and not saving money. The engineers from Intel was saying that you could overclock this chipset and get more out of it than the others. There was no discussion about saving money, just how you can get the most out of the chipsets. The only discussion about money was about the Pentium processors. They said the 2.8 was the best buy for the money, on the upper end. They didn't come right out and say it but they sort of hinted that it was an under clocked 3 0. I'll be darned if I know, I don't know anything about the Intel chipset. If I do go to in Intel, I'm certainly not going to try and save money, I'll go with the best in chipsets, I just thought it funny that the engineers would be talking this way:).
The dragon

slayer[SS]

05-26-2003, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by The Dragon
I don't think I made myself clear, this was a discussion about overclocking and not saving money. The engineers from Intel was saying that you could overclock this chipset and get more out of it than the others. There was no discussion about saving money, just how you can get the most out of the chipsets. The only discussion about money was about the Pentium processors. They said the 2.8 was the best buy for the money, on the upper end. They didn't come right out and say it but they sort of hinted that it was an under clocked 3 0. I'll be darned if I know, I don't know anything about the Intel chipset. If I do go to in Intel, I'm certainly not going to try and save money, I'll go with the best in chipsets, I just thought it funny that the engineers would be talking this way:).
The dragon

Well, all I know is what I've read. The i865PE is the same chipset as the i875P, but they didn't rate as high and therefore were binned differently. At least that's the scoop I've gotten from reading what's available on the topic. Wish I had a board with both so I could test... :xx

The Dragon[SS]

05-26-2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Well, all I know is what I've read. The i865PE is the same chipset as the i875P, but they didn't rate as high and therefore were binned differently. At least that's the scoop I've gotten from reading what's available on the topic. Wish I had a board with both so I could test... :xx

Well, what I do is a little different, I go out and read all I can, then I come back here and throw it at you, then let you straighten me out:D .I like my way better :D. if I do decide to go Intel I think it will be the gigabyte but I am unsure as to how it compares in performance with the abit board. I can't seem to find a comparison between the two. I know the gigabyte drivers are not as matured as abit's. It will also be the I875P chipset that I get. Right now I'm just kicking things around and trying to learn a little.
The dragon

slayer[SS]

05-26-2003, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon
Well, what I do is a little different, I go out and read all I can, then I come back here and throw it at you, then let you straighten me out:D .I like my way better :D. if I do decide to go Intel I think it will be the gigabyte but I am unsure as to how it compares in performance with the abit board. I can't seem to find a comparison between the two. I know the gigabyte drivers are not as matured as abit's. It will also be the I875P chipset that I get. Right now I'm just kicking things around and trying to learn a little.
The dragon

From what I've heard, the Gigabyte board is pretty nice. I've heard some not so good things about the MSI i875 board, but the Gigabyte, Asus and Abit boards all get rated very nicely. I can't wait until I can get me the Abit board this fall... :D

The Dragon[SS]

05-26-2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
From what I've heard, the Gigabyte board is pretty nice. I've heard some not so good things about the MSI i875 board, but the Gigabyte, Asus and Abit boards all get rated very nicely. I can't wait until I can get me the Abit board this fall... :D

Michael just got his IC7-G board (I think that's the right designation) and a 3200 P4, and when I get my board back, we're going to have a battery of test and see just how bad it beats my 333. That is what is going to determine if I buy the gigabyte or not. If it really tears the 333 chipset up, then I will buy the gigabyte board and the 3200 processor that week.

Now you will have to remember we will be comparing a 2500 Barton with a 333 chipset up against a 3200 P4 with faster ram. So I would not exactly call it a fair comparison but we will see. The only thing equal will be the graphics card. To show you that he is fair-minded, he is letting me download the latest drivers and Bios, big hearted isn't he?
The dragon
if you come across a comparison between the gigabyte and the Abit board, please let me know. I suspect the gigabyte will lose out a little but with more mature drivers it may almost equal it.

slayer[SS]

05-26-2003, 04:14 PM

If I come across a direct comparison, I'll let you know. I may have seen one and if not, head to head comparisons should be coming up soon... ;)

slayer[SS]

05-27-2003, 07:33 AM

Okay, as promised, here's a head to head for ya: linkage (http://www.dark-tweaker.com/875p-roundup.htm). I would hit Babel Fish (http://world.altavista.com/) for a translation, or just look at the graphs, which are universal... :D

The Dragon[SS]

05-27-2003, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Okay, as promised, here's a head to head for ya: linkage (http://www.dark-tweaker.com/875p-roundup.htm). I would hit Babel Fish (http://world.altavista.com/) for a translation, or just look at the graphs, which are universal... :D

Hehe I took the universal route and thanks. Here is a reply to a post I did. One of there reviewers replied this
Part of the main reason people dont like Gigabyte is that there older boards did not perform as well or died (which is bad!).. I cannot speak about there pre P4 boards.. But I did own 2 of there latest P4 boards...

The GA-8PE667 Ultra, This board is based on the i845PE chipset and it performed/overclocked much better then any other i845PE boards I had owned.. Even better then the Asus P4PE....

I also own the GA-8KNXP, This board is based on the i875 chipset. I am real happy with this board. It came fully loaded with all the bells and whistles. I had all the IDE cables, 4 SATA cables and power connectors, back plates, SATA external connection plate, audio plate, etc...

I also tried out the Abit IC7, I thought it was a decent board.. It didnt overclock as high as my KNXP. But it didnt do that bad. It handled my Corsair PC3500 better then the KNXP.. I am able to push the ram harder in this board then my other one.. Also its pretty lame this board has the RJ-45 jack but not a controller chip! Not even a 10/100!!! LAME!!

I also tried/have the Asus P4C800 DLX, So far this board is better then the IC7. I can push a decent memory score and overclock. I am still trying to find my max overclock and I can get a few extra Mhz out of my chip stable!!! So I am happy...

So I would pick out of the current Canterwood boards I have tired in this order:

P4C800
KNXP
IC7

I would also like to note that I didnt try the latest 1.2 BIOS on the IC7, it was suppose to resolve some memory issues.. But the board did still have a higher then average temp reading...

What do you think?
The Dragon

Hope that helps a little

slayer[SS]

05-27-2003, 12:11 PM

Very nice Dragon! It still doesn't dissuade me from getting the IC7-G, but it is great info. The newer BIOS he talked about does fix those memory problems. I've read about that on the Abit forums and at OCAddiction.com forums. That's still my top pick, but the Asus and the Gigabyte look pretty sweet as well! The Asus I don't like as much because they used the cheap version of the ICH, which doesn't have the built in SATA and they also didn't use the Intel NIC, but used a 3COM instead, so you don't get to take advantage of the higher bus CSA offers. I don't understand why they went that route, but it turns me off the board. The Gigabyte sounds good though, just not as good as the Abit (at least to me)... ;)

The Dragon[SS]

05-27-2003, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Very nice Dragon! It still doesn't dissuade me from getting the IC7-G, but it is great info. The newer BIOS he talked about does fix those memory problems. I've read about that on the Abit forums and at OCAddiction.com forums. That's still my top pick, but the Asus and the Gigabyte look pretty sweet as well! The Asus I don't like as much because they used the cheap version of the ICH, which doesn't have the built in SATA and they also didn't use the Intel NIC, but used a 3COM instead, so you don't get to take advantage of the higher bus CSA offers. I don't understand why they went that route, but it turns me off the board. The Gigabyte sounds good though, just not as good as the Abit (at least to me)... ;)

Well, I wasn't trying to dissuade you (hehe) for the abit is one of my favorite speed boards, but it comes up real short on what I want in a board. Like I said, sata will be prime time next year or the following year, but it sucks now, but that is just personal opinion:) . Heck, two of the guys here have bought that very board and that is the board my little 333 chipset is going up against, lots of luck on that, talk about cruising for a bruising.

I finally found a shoot out on my board and your board and there was very little difference in the scores, of course, your board won out in seven out of the 10 tests, but not by that much, I can really live with the difference, plus gigabyte is going to come out with more drivers in the near future. The funny thing is my board's are MSI and Epox, I have never been a fan of gigabyte. And darn, that abit is nice but it is also sata oriented. I don't like the ASUS board at all.
Keep well my friend
the Dragon

slayer[SS]

05-27-2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by The Dragon

Keep well my friend
the Dragon

You too... ;)

slayer[SS]

05-29-2003, 07:09 AM

A couple more gems I picked up talking about i875, i865 and PAT. This first one is from the Tech Report:

Asus first to claim PAT enabled on 865PE board
by Scott Wasson - 11:33 pm, May 28, 2003

Sharp-eyed TR reader Perezoso sends along the Asus press release in which Asus claims to have enabled Intel's Performance Acceleration Technology, formerly exclusive to the 875P chipset, on its 865PE-based motherboard. Here's a big, tasty snippet:

Taipei, Taiwan; May 28, 2003 — ASUSTeK Computer Inc. (ASUS), the worldwide leader of motherboards, today announced its P4P800 series motherboards, based on Intel™s latest 865PE chipset, are able to active Intel's Performance Acceleration Technology (PAT) for robust computing. Currently, ASUS' 865PE motherboards are the only solutions in the market that provide this advanced feature.
PAT is a trigger for extreme performance, boosting system performance by 3-5%. Combined with the 865PE chipset enabling an 800MHz system bus, it is designed for extreme performance. According to Intel, PAT is an exclusive technology for the 875P chipset, but with ASUS' strong engineering capability, the P4P800 series comes equipped with this feature as well.

To activate PAT, simply go into BIOS setup utility. Here are the simple steps:

1) Enter BIOS setup utility
2) Select "Advanced" menu
3) Select "Chipset" configuration
4) Enabled Memory Acceleration Mode
5) Your system is now PAT ready

Simple as that. Since 875P north bridge chips are simply cherry-picked 865PE north bridges, I expected this might happen, as I mentioned in my 875P chipset review:
I'm wondering whether most Springdale boards won't have an option in the BIOS that provides the functional equivalent of PAT. Some might not be stable with it enabled, but many may—especially with proper cooling.
So this development is no great shocker. The questions are: how stable are these Asus boards with PAT turned up, and what percentage of them can manage this stability? Only time will tell.
Oh, and by the way, the Asus press release was supposed to be here, but as I write, the page seems to have vanished. Does the Asus web server perhaps have Intel Inside?

And this second one is from the [H]:

[H]ardNews 9th Edition Wednesday May 28, 2003
Posted by Kyle 4:36 PM (CDT)

More Intel PAT:
Today we have more news about PAT. We have more [H]'er mail coming in today about Intel's Performance Acceleration Technology and more disinformation being spread.

First, let’s address the issues of the -100MB/s scores when using two DIMMs per channel on an 875P chipset. It seems as though new information has come to light. Our hypothesis about latency issues giving us the -100MB/s was proved wrong last night by Michael over a LostCircuits (he is a great memory guru). The 875P apparently has a multifunction that has yet to be discovered. PAT does in fact have at least two different modes of operation. When a user inserts a second DIMM on one channel, PAT changes its memory timing optimizations in order to give the chipset solid stable operation that so many of us are used to seeing in Intel products. This was explained to me as PAT "balancing maximum performance with robust operating stability". So yes in fact using more than one DIMM per channel does change the way PAT works, but it is far from turning it off or disabling it as our graphs here proved yesterday.

Secondly, we are getting reports of Asus is stating that they have enabled PAT on Springdale/865PE chipsets.

Taipei, Taiwan; May 28, 2003 – ASUSTeK Computer Inc. (ASUS), the worldwide leader of motherboards, today announced its P4P800 series motherboards, based on Intel’s latest 865PE chipset, are able to active Intel’s Performance Acceleration Technology (PAT) for robust computing. Currently, ASUS’ 865PE motherboards are the only solutions in the market that provide this advanced feature.

This press release makes statements that are simply not true. Intel's Performance Acceleration Technology is very much a function of hardware. The resources to enabled PAT on a 865PE chipset would simply be too great if it is possible at all. So get it out of your head that Asus is enabling PAT on their Springdale chipset, as that is not a reality. I will have to categorize this as terribly bad and misleading marketing rather than an outright lie. What is true is that Asus has enabled some incredibly aggressive memory optimizations on their P4P800 865PE mainboard.

We finished testing their 865Pe board earlier this week and quite simply when we tested the memory bandwidth; we thought that there was an issue with it running faster than it was reporting. The scores are quite incredible and we should have the entire review on line for you next week. To give you a bit of insight though, and to give you a word of warning before you go out and buy the Asus 865PE board, we have found that when you overclock the memory bus and are running asynchronously, like you would be doing if you were running a Pentium 4 2.4C at 3GHz, that there is a very real negative impact on the real world scores. Yes, so far we are seeing 3GHz 1GHz FSB scores being outstripped by 3GHz 800MHz FSB scores. This is something every enthusiast will need to take into consideration if think you might be running the board at something other than stock settings.

Very interesting stuff, to say the least... ;)

slayer[SS]

07-21-2003, 05:09 AM

Wow, I just noticed that I'm coming up on 4 months with this system. Not bad. I've already decided that the system is running smooth and stable to the point where I don't even need to consider upgrading anytime in the near future. I think I'm going to try a full year with this mobo / CPU combo... ;)

Zwolf[SS]

07-21-2003, 08:57 AM

Mine has also been very stable. I'm going to move to another chipset this fall though. Probably the 875, then I'll wait for the CPU prices to start to come down.

ZigZag

07-21-2003, 09:06 AM

What's the difference between Springdale & Canterwood chipsets?

slayer[SS]

07-21-2003, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by ZigZag
What's the difference between Springdale & Canterwood chipsets?

Well, here's what I understand of it. Canterwood (i875) is the "cherry picked" version of the new chipset. It's been speed rated as highest performance with highest stability. It's also the only one of the two chipsets to be able to officially run PAT (performance application technology, or something like that). Basically, it's enhanced settings that lets the Canterwood chipset run much faster then the Springdale chipset. However, almost every board maker has some kind of PAT-like feature on their Springdale boards that puts them neck and neck with Canterwood boards performance wise. The only real advantage the Canterwood chipset has is that it will officially run PAT. You may get a Springdale board that performs as well with it's PAT-like feature, but it may have stability issues. Intel is trying to get all the board makers to drop the PAT-like features from their Springdale boards, so that could happen in the future. If you want the guaranteed speed and stability, pay a little more for a Canterwood board. If you want to spend less and take a little bit of a risk, then go with the Springdale chipset. Otherwise, they're basically the same chipset...;)

slayer[SS]

07-21-2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]
Mine has also been very stable. I'm going to move to another chipset this fall though. Probably the 875, then I'll wait for the CPU prices to start to come down.

I'm going to try VERY hard to wait until at least January or so before I upgrade again... :cool:

ZigZag

07-21-2003, 09:43 AM

I have considered a P4 with a Canterwood board as I could still utilize my Kingston Hyper x pc3500 memory. But after reading MANY threads on MANY boards it seems the HIGH end P4 chips run JUST AS HOT as Amd's.....

Thats what keeps me from switching over.....Water cooling is NOT an option for me, I'll never try that.......

(Thx for the explanation, Slayer)

Zwolf[SS]

07-21-2003, 10:22 AM

Tis true, tis true, the higher end Intel CPU's do tend to run hot. But I wouldn't say any hotter than the AMD CPU's do. There are a hell of a lot more cooling solutions available for AMD procs. though. I know both Slayer and I have noticed that our CPU's run hotter even at idle than most AMD CPU's do, but I also think that the temps are reported a little more accurately.

slayer[SS]

07-21-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by ZigZag
I have considered a P4 with a Canterwood board as I could still utilize my Kingston Hyper x pc3500 memory. But after reading MANY threads on MANY boards it seems the HIGH end P4 chips run JUST AS HOT as Amd's.....

Thats what keeps me from switching over.....Water cooling is NOT an option for me, I'll never try that.......

(Thx for the explanation, Slayer)

No problem. Yeah, if you're looking simply to reduce heat, then there's no reason to move away from AMD unless you feel the need to. Otherwise, the high end P4's ARE faster then the high end AMD's now, but not by a lot. The Canterwood / 800Mhz FSB CPU combo is pretty sweet, plus the C revision CPU's tend to OC very well... ;)

slayer[SS]

07-21-2003, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Zwolf[SS]
Tis true, tis true, the higher end Intel CPU's do tend to run hot. But I wouldn't say any hotter than the AMD CPU's do. There are a hell of a lot more cooling solutions available for AMD procs. though. I know both Slayer and I have noticed that our CPU's run hotter even at idle than most AMD CPU's do, but I also think that the temps are reported a little more accurately.

I'd definitely agree with that. It's funny though, I updated my BIOS on Friday and now my CPU doesn't get any hotter then 53C. I'd say that the Abit was reporting a little higher then it should have. Interestingly enough, I'm idling about the same as I was previously. I'm very interested to see what (if anything) the SLK-900u will do for me, once I get it installed this weekend. The guy I installed it for at work got very nice results... ;)

CRASH

08-16-2003, 12:30 AM

Well, the 3.2Ghz is ordered .. due in on the 20th. ATI 9800 PRO 256 meg card due in about the same time ... soon I will give ya the skinney on this Abit IC7-G board how fast I can get it.

Will be a sweet box when done ... :banger:

slayer[SS]

08-16-2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by CRASH
Well, the 3.2Ghz is ordered .. due in on the 20th. ATI 9800 PRO 256 meg card due in about the same time ... soon I will give ya the skinney on this Abit IC7-G board how fast I can get it.

Will be a sweet box when done ... :banger:

Sounds good dude, let us know how it runs. I'm still thinking of getting one of those boards and CPU's eventually, just not until I'm totally dissatisfied with what I have... ;)

slayer[SS]

08-16-2003, 10:54 AM

I just noticed I haven't updated this in quite a while. I actually put the SLK-900u on and wasn't happy with the results. I even took the HSF off and reinstalled it to see if I'd done something wrong, but didn't get any better results. I'd had the CPU hit as high as 55C with it and a medium speed fan (I wouldn't put anything higher speed on because of the noise). Because I'd had around those same temps with my old Vantec HSF, I decided to put it back on. With it, I've hit as high as 54C, but no higher. Because of this, I've decided to stick with the Vantec HSF which is more attractive in my case, works as well and cost a lot less. Now I have a SLK-900u to use when I build my next P4 system... ;)

CRASH

08-16-2003, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Sounds good dude, let us know how it runs. I'm still thinking of getting one of those boards and CPU's eventually, just not until I'm totally dissatisfied with what I have... ;)

Will be real honest ... NOTHING I currently run on my 2.53 needs anythign more. LOMAC when it comes out will .. but I am not real confident it will be playable upon release anyway. Why am I doing this? :dunno:

Don't answer fellas I know exactly why I am doing this .... 8`/

slayer[SS]

08-16-2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by CRASH
Will be real honest ... NOTHING I currently run on my 2.53 needs anythign more. LOMAC when it comes out will .. but I am not real confident it will be playable upon release anyway. Why am I doing this? :dunno:

Don't answer fellas I know exactly why I am doing this .... 8`/

I understand. Many a time I've built a new system that I didn't really need... :p

JungleMan

08-16-2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Now I have a SLK-900u to use when I build my next P4 system... ;)
Or when you buy a real system like an Athlon 64 this fall...:p

slayer[SS]

08-16-2003, 12:44 PM

Originally posted by JungleMan
Or when you buy a real system like an Athlon 64 this fall...:p

Well, I'm looking forward to those coming out and they look SWEET, but I'll wait for the reviews before I start thinking about them too hard. I'll also wait for the 64 bit version of XP before I worry about it as well... ;)

Evc

08-17-2003, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by CRASH
Just love people who "convert" others. Some form of evangelical thing going on here? Can you just lay hands on an AMD box and magically quiet them down too? :rolleyes: By convert I mean get them away from Intel.

"Pentium this, Pentium that" yadda yadda yadda, "Ive never heard of AMD":rolleyes:

"I want to buy a Pentium system" :rolleyes:

Then when I show them the benchmarks comparing Intel to AMD, they want to get AMD cause they are faster.

AMD is technically superior to Intel, and you know it.

Intels CPU's are known to waste a few clock cycles on its branch misspredictions incurred by its long 20-stage pipelineThat is one of the many reasons the Pee4 is a waste of money.

About the noise, if you cant deal with a little noise, you got problems. You want great performance with little noise, not possible :rolleyes: My box runs quiet and beats the crap out of both my friends pitiful Pee4 2.4's with ease, eats those up for lunch. Why do they run hot? Cause they actually do work.

http://www.amd.com/DAM/data/cordacharts/70649.jpg

Whys the 3.0 P4 with or without HT get beat by a much lower clocked CPU? Cause they are inferior, that is why. Yea, thats from the AMD site, but it was tested with WinStone, not by a program written up by Intel people to optimize their CPU's and make them look better when they are not.

More MHz = more power?

NO

More clocks per cycle = more power?

YES.

If you are one to believe that more MHz means your PC is faster, then you need help.:p Bigtime

CRASH

08-17-2003, 01:49 AM

After all this time you decide to post THAT crap? No, YOU need help. Grow up.

Evc

08-17-2003, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by CRASH
After all this time you decide to post THAT crap? No, YOU need help. Grow up. :rolleyes:

I dont come here much, so Im catching up on things:p

me~~>http://fastlanehw.com/forums/images/smilies/twak.gif<~~you

Its not crap, its the truth:p :rolleyes:

CRASH

08-17-2003, 03:46 AM

Guys, is EVC the key chain guy? He sure sounds foolish enough to be the one.

EVC,
Not crap, the truth? I need help “bigtime” and you would like to smack me in the head with a stick? Well, I just have to help you realize what a fool you have made of yourself then don’t I? First off, everyone here has been comparing performance ... OBJECTIVELY and had a pretty good exchange going on. Then you come in with “THE SUPERIOR TRUTH!!!!” :rolleyes:

Lets take a look at your post shall we?

You posted a test from AMD even though you clearly state that Intel uses optimized software to make themselves look good. And you think AMD doesn’t? Go to the corner and put on the pointy hat please. I can post 1 for 1 every test you post showing AMD being better, a test showing Intel being better. And not straight from the manufacturers web site either. All about the mighty $ big fella … ask any major web site ... hell, ask Monarch. <obligatory dig accomplished>

I am not sure you understand the naming convention that AMD is using. They don’t like to publicly talk about it and say it is “just a name” however I have had meetings with AMD executives (Oh wait ... didn’t I tell you I have been involved behind the scenes in this industry for years? Not that it would really have mattered … you would be making a fool out of yourself anyway) that an “XP3200” would have a similar clock cycle count as an Intel 3200Mhz processor. That would be the target market sector they are aiming at. Yes everyone really knows that ... but AMD will not admit it straight out. Now, your tests shows a XP3200 getting 6% better performance than the 3000Mhz Intel chip. Hmmm, now if I do the math, that extra 200Mhz the naming convention eludes too equals about a 6.7% increase in clock cycles. So should I really be surprised it was 6% faster than the Intel 3.0GHz? Um ... that would be NO Sparky. Maybe we should toss in a 3.2 Ghz Intel chip now for a more accurate comparison, shall we? I bet it gets a lot closer … probably as close as the XP3000 and the Intel 3.Ghz chip on the test.

You also make a claim that the test is “WinStone, not by a program written up by Intel people to optimize their CPU's and make them look better when they are not.” Funny, they also say right at the bottom of that test that they have enabled 3Dnow on this test. Now, why would they do that if not to make THEMSELVES look better? I really like the line “This software update is not publicly available” … HOT DAMN … I really do wanna make sure it works good for me then … http://www.buddyboys.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/doh.gif. Now, understand I have a bookcase full of software and NONE OF IT has 3DNow optimization (I don’t use Windows Media Encoder – but I bet you prolly do even tho M$ is probably as inferior in your eyes as Intel is) … you better bet I really give a rats a$$ if 3Dnow helps the AMD perform better. (That is called sarcasm … get to know it well). Wow .. 2% better in a biased test … AMD is SOOOOO superior to Intel. 8`/

And as for the Hyperthreading … wouldn’t it actually be nice if some of that software actually supported Hyperthreading if you want to use it as a way to drag down the performance? Hmmm, now I may be wrong here, but I really don’t see a lot of software on that list that I think qualifies. Sounds sort of unfair and biased to me. Lets give a Hyperthreaded program a run on both machines, shall we? However, I don’t’ have much that supports Hyperthreading either, so I am not so sure that would make a big impression on me now either. Actually a couple of sims I fly DO … Falcon 4.0, IL-2 and IL-2 FB – MiG Alley actually ran better on dual processor systems … and I think LOMAC may be coded for it too … so it may be interesting to me. But I can’t say that I expect the performance to be such a huge leap above the non-Hyperthreaded version of the software. So your “unbiased” test (I mean it must be since it was tested with Winstone and 3Dnow and did not use programs that may show off the Intel advantages) really must be the definitive answer and the god given truth. http://www.buddyboys.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bow.gif

Here is an idea ... lets test something I actually run on my PC – if you have read this entire thread you already know what I personally think of the industry standard tests for CPUs, Vid cards or anything else … they are worthless. Lets run something we actually will experience, shall we? Lets try the previously mentioned Falcon 4.0 at 1600X1200. You will never see that comparison from AMD ... why? Because AMD chips can’t run it more than about 10 FPS when the Intel chips run it at 50 FPS. Something that is just not compatible ... do I think less of AMD for it? No, it is one of those strange flukes that no one has been able to explain yet.

Overall this test shows VERY SIMILAR results between the XP3000 and Intel 3.0 Ghz chips ... despite the 3Dnow trick and the lack of a solid Hyperthreading test. A whopping 2% or so … running tests on software I don’t give a damn about. Yep, makes a believer out of me. Better throw away all of my Intel stuff and convert NOW! (SARCASM ALERT) And in reality, these days they both are running similar temperatures. And when I run one of the 5 AMD machines I have in my office against one of the 5 Intel machines I have in my office … my results are pretty similar too. Depends on what I run and what I want it to do. Boy, imagine that … :rolleyes:

I really need to help you understand something else. There is not ONE WAY TO SPEED/PERFORMANCE. AMD uses more cycles per clocks, less mhz … Intel uses less cycles per clock, more mhz. Temps, overall clock cycles and performance end up being pretty similar. Sort of like a Corvette has a bigger engine than a 350Z – but the Z revs higher … two means to a similar end. Is the ‘Vette inferior to the Z? Please don’t answer that … your hole is deep enough already.

EVC, the one that needs help here is you. I own many machines of both brands I am not about to be deluded into calling one superior to the other. I never did in this thread so I really am a bit surprised that you came down from the alter to try and exorcize the devil from me here. I did make fun of your “conversion” practice. (And most likely will again … it is just the way of the Prickosaurus.) That is a clear indication you have no where near the knowledge you think you do and want to make yourself look smart to your friends. You could make yourself look a whole lot smarter if you could take your unjustified emotions out of the mix and used some objectivity. A stretch for you I know … but I had to suggest it anyway.

And actually it is -

Me ~~> http://www.buddyboys.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/slap.gif <~~ you

Wake up already, would ya?

And last thing ... it is still crap, uneducated drivel and a blatantly biased attempt to prove you are right about something no one asked you about. Good luck in life, you are gonna need it.

Spew away … I have said my piece, picked apart your pathetic post and am done with high jacking a thread that was actually enjoyable and informative. I will go back to the real world where these two products perform so closely to each other that people have to make up lies to save face for buying one or the other.

Oh, and have a nice day.

P.S. Please do not notice in my sig I have listed one of each brand machine ... it may make you pop a vein or sumethin'

JungleMan

08-17-2003, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Well, I'm looking forward to those coming out and they look SWEET, but I'll wait for the reviews before I start thinking about them too hard. I'll also wait for the 64 bit version of XP before I worry about it as well... ;)
Of course you have to wait for reviews, but I definitely think it'll win :)

OK, as for right now, P4 IS the fastest, whether you like it or not. However it's also the most expensive, P4s with 800Mhz FSB (not the 533s..) start at about $180 whereas you can usually nab a 1700 T-Bred and OC it to 2.4Ghz for around $50-$60.

So how much would a great Intel combo cost, let's say $150 for a Canterwood board and $180 for an Intel 2.4C, we're getting up in price here! Take a look on the AMD side, something like Epox 8RDA+ is just a mere $75 and a Barton 2500 is also about the same price. That's significantly less money. Sure, the P4 is faster... but by what...10%?

And whether you like to admit it or not, even a brand new 3.2C with Canterwood chipset is going to be OBSOLETE when A64 comes out. Now my 2.5Ghz AMD / Epox 8RDA+ which I spent $130 total on will also be obsolete, but I did spend a LOT less money. Why spend big bucks on something that's going to be old hat anyway? 32-bit is on the way out (I would not doubt that Intel also has another 64-bit chip up their sleeve), and I would just simply not spend a large amount of money on ANY 32 bit combo, AMD or Intel.

End of story.

CRASH

08-17-2003, 11:21 AM

Jungleman,
I agree 32 bit is on it's way out ... but not for a while. Until software and operating systems are developed that take advantage if it, it is just a lot of overkill and extra expense with little to no performance improvement to show for it. And that will not happen over night … it will take a few more years – or more - to really see enough mainstream software that will take advantage of the 64 bit processors to make it worth plunking down the cash (at least in my opinion – don’t expect games to jump to 64 bit right away when the masses have 32 bit) ... by that time, it will be time for a new upgrade anyway. Until then, upgrading to 64 bit makes about as much sense as me upgrading to a 3.2 Ghz chip … no real reason to do it but for bragging rights.

I sort of equate it to Linux ... interested in it, but until there is something out there I am interested in running on it, I am sticking with Windows. I do look forward to hearing what you have to say about your Opteron when you get it.

Evc

08-17-2003, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by CRASH
You posted a test from AMD even though you clearly state that Intel uses optimized software to make themselves look good. And you think AMD doesn’t? The test I showed is a known benchmark made by Ziff Davis. Not written up by Intel to make their horrid chips look good. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by CRASH
that an “XP3200” would have a similar clock cycle count as an Intel 3200Mhz processor. That would be the target market sector they are aiming at. Yes everyone really knows that ... but AMD will not admit it straight out. Now, your tests shows a XP3200 getting 6% better performance than the 3000Mhz Intel chip. Hmmm, now if I do the math, that extra 200Mhz the naming convention eludes too equals about a 6.7% increase in clock cycles. So should I really be surprised it was 6% faster than the Intel 3.0GHz? Um ... that would be NO Sparky. Maybe we should toss in a 3.2 Ghz Intel chip now for a more accurate comparison, shall we? I bet it gets a lot closer … probably as close as the XP3000 and the Intel 3.Ghz chip on the test.Ohhhh an extra 200MHz is needed for Intel, that equates to about 66MHz AMD speed. Point is CLOCK FOR CLOCK AMD rapes Intel. Why does Intel need to be 800MHz+ faster in benchmarks to win them? Cause their chip is INFERIOR and does less work (no wonder they dont get as hot :rolleyes: )

Originally posted by CRASH
You also make a claim that the test is “WinStone, not by a program written up by Intel people to optimize their CPU's and make them look better when they are not.” Funny, they also say right at the bottom of that test that they have enabled 3Dnow on this test. Now, why would they do that if not to make THEMSELVES look better? I really like the line “This software update is not publicly available” … HOT DAMN … I really do wanna make sure it works good for me then. Now, understand I have a bookcase full of software and NONE OF IT has 3DNow optimization (I don’t use Windows Media Encoder – but I bet you prolly do even tho M$ is probably as inferior in your eyes as Intel is) … you better bet I really give a rats a$$ if 3Dnow helps the AMD perform better. (That is called sarcasm … get to know it well). Wow .. 2% better in a biased test … AMD is SOOOOO superior to Intel. 8`/What about those tests that use SSE2? Eh, all those tests where SSE2 comes into play Intel wins. STFU http://bluecollargaming.com/forum/images/smilies/owned.gif

Originally posted by CRASH
Here is an idea ... lets test something I actually run on my PC – if you have read this entire thread you already know what I personally think of the industry standard tests for CPUs, Vid cards or anything else … they are worthless. Lets run something we actually will experience, shall we? Lets try the previously mentioned Falcon 4.0 at 1600X1200. You will never see that comparison from AMD ... why? Because AMD chips can’t run it more than about 10 FPS when the Intel chips run it at 50 FPS. Something that is just not compatible ... do I think less of AMD for it? No, it is one of those strange flukes that no one has been able to explain yet. Ever think that maybe cause your AMD system is 1GHz, slower, and crippled with a GF4 MX(compareable to a reg GF2) is maybe why it cant run the game? :rolleyes: Throw that Ti4600 on there and watch those FPS rocket up.

Originally posted by CRASH
Overall this test shows VERY SIMILAR results between the XP3000 and Intel 3.0 Ghz chips ... despite the 3Dnow trick and the lack of a solid Hyperthreading test. A whopping 2% or so … running tests on software I don’t give a damn about. Yep, makes a believer out of me. Better throw away all of my Intel stuff and convert NOW! (SARCASM ALERT) And in reality, these days they both are running similar temperatures. And when I run one of the 5 AMD machines I have in my office against one of the 5 Intel machines I have in my office … my results are pretty similar too. Depends on what I run and what I want it to do. Boy, imagine that. 3DNow trick? What about the SSE2 trick? Gotta love those "Intel designed" thermal solutions, cant even run a Celeron 1.7 under 55C, so they must really suck for those 2.4's+

Originally posted by CRASH
Spew away … I have said my piece, picked apart your pathetic postJust picked apart your pathetic post, you must have a lot of free time to spew all that garbage out. http://bluecollargaming.com/forum/images/smilies/elvis.gif

Go yourself a favor, go get a life. http://bluecollargaming.com/forum/images/smilies/owned.gif

Im done with that turd crash, hes going on ignore like he rightfully earned.B-B

CRASH

08-17-2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Evc

Ever think that maybe cause your AMD system is 1GHz, slower, and crippled with a GF4 MX(compareable to a reg GF2) is maybe why it cant run the game? :rolleyes: Throw that Ti4600 on there and watch those FPS rocket up.

Stupid is as stupid does ... those results are on a Barton 3000+ with a GF4Ti4600 ... you are talking about a problem you have no concept off ... again. Keep making yourself look stupid, you are soooo good at it. The rest of your post is as inane as your first.

Evc

08-17-2003, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by CRASH
Stupid is as stupid does ... those results are on a Barton 3000+ with a GF4Ti4600 ... you are talking about a problem you have no concept off ... again. Keep making yourself look stupid, you are soooo good at it. The rest of your post is as inane as your first. You never said that so how was I supposed to know:rolleyes:

Excuse me for not being able to read your mind :xx

I dont play those silly flight sim games, nothing but a waste of my time.

[edit]To respect slayer (cause hes a good guy B-B) , Im not answering to your garbage anymore, take it to PM if you want to continue to waste my time and jump all over me like you did someone else a few months ago as well for no reason whatsoever.

JungleMan

08-17-2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by CRASH
Jungleman,
I agree 32 bit is on it's way out ... but not for a while. Until software and operating systems are developed that take advantage if it, it is just a lot of overkill and extra expense with little to no performance improvement to show for it. And that will not happen over night … it will take a few more years – or more - to really see enough mainstream software that will take advantage of the 64 bit processors to make it worth plunking down the cash (at least in my opinion – don’t expect games to jump to 64 bit right away when the masses have 32 bit) ... by that time, it will be time for a new upgrade anyway. Until then, upgrading to 64 bit makes about as much sense as me upgrading to a 3.2 Ghz chip … no real reason to do it but for bragging rights.

I sort of equate it to Linux ... interested in it, but until there is something out there I am interested in running on it, I am sticking with Windows. I do look forward to hearing what you have to say about your Opteron when you get it.
Windows XP 64-bit is actually due out very soon, and many major apps are going 64-bit very soon. I believe a 64-bit version of UT2003 is already functional. 64-bit won't be required by next year, but it'll really help big time if you've got the 64-bit support.

Kind of like DX9- nothing really uses it yet, but in a good 6 months all the new games will, and you'd be a fool to spend any more than maybe $120 on a card that isn't fully compliant.

Even without 64-bit apps, I still wouldn't put it past the A64 to beat the P4 3.2 on all fronts. But we'll just have to wait and see. :)

CRASH

08-17-2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by JungleMan
Windows XP 64-bit is actually due out very soon, and many major apps are going 64-bit very soon. I believe a 64-bit version of UT2003 is already functional. 64-bit won't be required by next year, but it'll really help big time if you've got the 64-bit support.

Well, I will wait on the XP 64 bit and see what it does for non-32 bit apps running under it. Was not aware UT2003 was going to have a 64 bit version (do not play it - but I will not tell you it is a waste of time ... everyone has their own interests) but it makes sence. The UT and Quake crowds are huge markets and would be a great demonstration of what 64 bit can do. You gonna do some sort of comparison on the improvements you see between the two, all hardware being equal? Are you aware of any sort of list anywhere that shows what is planning 64 bit functionality?

Kind of like DX9- nothing really uses it yet, but in a good 6 months all the new games will, and you'd be a fool to spend any more than maybe $120 on a card that isn't fully compliant..

I almost agree. I agree not to buy a card without DX9 support, not a good move at this time. But I would have thought that as long as DX9 has been out, we would have seen more stuff taking serious advantage of it already. Sort of like the fancy nVidia tricks that never caught on. I do have a few games that "tout" DX9 functionality, but I have seen little difference. I really hope that true DX9 functionality on the 9800 PRO I am getting sells me. Never really cared for nVidia, especially after they killed 3Dfx.

Even without 64-bit apps, I still wouldn't put it past the A64 to beat the P4 3.2 on all fronts. But we'll just have to wait and see. :)

Will niether agree, nor disagree. Will have to wait and see. I would hope that a similar Mhz chip in 64 bit would smoke a 32 bit chip of the same speed (or equivilent clock cycle in the case of AMD). Otherwise they are barking up the wrong tree. The real interest to me is how will a 2Ghz 64 bit chip perform ... what will it benchmark equivilent to in the 32 bit market? Once it all shakes out I will look at it then ... should be about time for another upgrade for me anyway ... I can't last more than 1 to 1.5 years between complete revamps.

JungleMan

08-17-2003, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by CRASH
Well, I will wait on the XP 64 bit and see what it does for non-32 bit apps running under it. Was not aware UT2003 was going to have a 64 bit version (do not play it - but I will not tell you it is a waste of time ... everyone has their own interests) but it makes sence. The UT and Quake crowds are huge markets and would be a great demonstration of what 64 bit can do. You gonna do some sort of comparison on the improvements you see between the two, all hardware being equal? Are you aware of any sort of list anywhere that shows what is planning 64 bit functionality?
First of all I enjoy UT2003 but that's just me :)

Secondly it's not so much UT2003 that's important, but if major games like UT2003 are going 64-bit, just imagine what other games will also go 64 bit. Half Life 2? Doom 3? Older stuff like Quake 3 maybe? Who knows?

WindsorFox[SS]

08-17-2003, 08:35 PM

Originally posted by CRASH
Stupid is as stupid does ... those results are on a Barton 3000+ with a GF4Ti4600 ... you are talking about a problem you have no concept off ... again. Keep making yourself look stupid, you are soooo good at it. The rest of your post is as inane as your first.

Actually EVC has a deep past of running benchmarks and comparisons and I think he knows quite a bit about what he is talking about when he does take the time to post. I also feel like personal attacks and name calling are extremely off topic and a wee bit immature.

Oreo[SS]

08-17-2003, 08:36 PM

Currently the 64 bit version of UT2003 is SERVER ONLY.

Evc

08-17-2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by WindsorFox[SS]
Actually EVC has a deep past of running benchmarks and comparisons and I think he knows quite a bit about what he is talking about when he does take the time to post. I also feel like personal attacks and name calling are extremely off topic and a wee bit immature. Yes I do Fox.. been doin it for many years.

Personal attacks are immature, why do you think I didnt attack him? Hes the one sounding like a child not me:cool:

Back on topic!

CRASH

08-17-2003, 11:59 PM

Windsorfox,
Man I could not agree more. You know someone may get offended by personal attacks and being told “you got problems” or “then you need help bigtime” or little pictures of being smacked with a stick. Might actually inspire someone to stand up and smack back ... god forbid we have a double standard now.

Clearly I have stumbled upon an AMD fan site where people would rather remain in a fantasy world and make shit up than admit that there a lot less difference between AMD and Intel than they can admit to. I will leave you all to worship your little gods that know not of what they speak but sure spin a good yarn.

Oreo, sorry man, but if this site is run on double standards for “the in crowd”, please pull my name off the posting roster.

Thanks

Dustyr

08-18-2003, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Evc
Yes I do Fox.. been doin it for many years.

Personal attacks are immature, why do you think I didnt attack him? Hes the one sounding like a child not me:cool:

Back on topic!

BAHAHAHA Nice "I know you are but what am I" post EVE. I hope you don't believe the stuff you type.:rolleyes: "Personal attacks are immature..." and then you say "Hes the one sounding like a child not me". And you expect people to believe what you typed befor this? CRASH showed some facts and percentages and all you did was tell him how wrong he was and have your buddy say how many years you have been doing this. :confused: :rolleyes: Then I hear that a MOD here has told CRASH to "back off"? I certainly hope you sent the same message to EVE, Slayer!

Evc

08-18-2003, 12:41 AM

whiplash[SS]

08-18-2003, 12:41 AM

I really hate to post in this thread, but this is just like a car argument or something like that.

Your right crash there isn't much difference b/t an Intel and AMD machine. You still run the same programs and games on it.

Time will only tell it the 64 bit processors are worth the money. Will I get one right when they come out, NO. I value my money to much. That is why I don't own an Intel rig. They are to high priced.

If the roles were in reverse than you would be arguing for AMD instead of Intel.

My biggest problem with Intel is their price and that is it.

slayer[SS]

08-18-2003, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Dustyr
BAHAHAHA Nice "I know you are but what am I" post EVE. I hope you don't believe the stuff you type.:rolleyes: "Personal attacks are immature..." and then you say "Hes the one sounding like a child not me". And you expect people to believe what you typed befor this? CRASH showed some facts and percentages and all you did was tell him how wrong he was and have your buddy say how many years you have been doing this. :confused: :rolleyes: Then I hear that a MOD here has told CRASH to "back off"? I certainly hope you sent the same message to EVE, Slayer!

Dustyr, for your info, I sent PM's to BOTH of them asking them to chill out and if they needed to continue the argument to take it to PM or email. We don't need that in the forums. Evc PM'd me back and said no prob, but CRASH kept posting. Yes, I did delete one of his posts, one that was a personal attack and posted after I asked him not to post anything more like that. Normally I'd PM someone and ask them to remove or edit their own posts, but Evc was on at the time and I didn't want to BS to start back up, so I removed it myself. I don't know how anyone can say there's double standards here, as I asked both members involved to chill. All I do know is that we don't allow personal attacks in the forums and posting to make someone else look stupid is a personal attack. Posting stuff to inform someone is one thing, but posting "this is the way it is and if you don't believe me then you're an ignorant child" is immature and something I won't stand for.

As for this being an AMD centric site :rolleyes: I've strived to make it anything BUT! I went out and bought an Intel setup myself, as did Zwolf and we're both becoming knowledgeable about both platforms. Yes, most of the members here use AMD, but that's normal since AMD CPU's are much less expensive... ;)

JungleMan

08-18-2003, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by Oreo[SS]
Currently the 64 bit version of UT2003 is SERVER ONLY.
"Currently"

Because there are close to zero people using 64-bit gaming boxes...heck until about a month ago it was a stretch to find an Opteron board with AGP.

I believe at MML2 there was a demo of 64-bit GAME running on an A64 laptop.

slayer[SS]

08-18-2003, 07:06 AM

BTW, in response to the posts in here about AMD vs Intel, I have to say that both are comparable chips. Yes, it does seem the AMD chips are "better" since at the same clock speed they beat the pants off a P4, BUT, P4's are clocked MUCH higher and the top end chips are faster then the top end AMD chips. The only major problem I have with Intel CPU's at this time is the price. There's like a $200 price difference between a 3.2Ghz P4 and a AXP 3200+. Now that is plain STUPID! When I bought my Intel system it was because a 2.8Ghz P4 was slightly cheaper then an AXP 2800+. At a price parity, or slight premium (up to $50 at the most), I can see buying a P4. At a $100 - $200 price difference, I'd certainly go with the AMD CPU. Look at the AXP 2600+ and the 2.6C P4, there's over a $100 difference. To be honest, my 2.8Ghz P4 was beat by my 333Mhz AXP 2600+ in most benchmarks. When I upped the 2600+ to 2800+ speeds, it mopped the floor with the 2.8Ghz P4. It wasn't until I OC'd the 2.8Ghz P4 to 3.2Ghz that I was able to barely beat the AMD system. That's why I ended up keeping the Intel system at the time. It just made more sense (plus I had a buyer for the AMD system)... ;)

If I had to build a system right now, I'd be very hard pressed to make a decision. I'd love to get a 3.0Ghz C revision P4 and an Abit IC7-G, which I'm sure would OC to 3.4Ghz or 3.5Ghz with no problem and be the fastest thing around, but it would also cost around $575. Now if I built a system with an AXP 3000+ and an Asus A7N8X Deluxe 2.0, it would only cost me around $375, saving me $200. I'm sure it could OC to 2.3Ghz - 2.5Ghz and perform just a little slower then the Intel system. Then again, like I said, it would also cost $200 less, which is a serious factor to me. I'm sure either would perform a little better then the system I have, but only by a little. I'm just glad my system performs well, since I don't need to spend $400 - $600 to upgrade it, especially for only modest speed gains... :D

Oreo[SS]

08-18-2003, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by CRASH
Clearly I have stumbled upon an AMD fan site where people would rather remain in a fantasy world and make shit up than admit that there a lot less difference between AMD and Intel than they can admit to.

Actually that is far from the truth as the existence of this thread proves. Hard to find an Intel thread like this at that other site. Everybody has the right to their opinions however personal attacks while doing so are unnecessary. In my years of debate I have found people are more apt to listen and discuss the issues at hand if personalities are kept to a minimum. I could get into the debate and argue either side but to what end? It is my understanding that the moderator sent PM’s to both parties involved here and asked for this to be put to rest. It should have been agreed to do so or at least take it to e-mail/PM that’s it plain and simple.

CRASH

08-18-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by slayer[SS]
Yes, I did delete one of his posts, one that was a personal attack and posted after I asked him not to post anything more like that.

I disagree with your time line Slayer, I did not get a PM from you that I know of until after I made that post. For the record, the deleted post was telling Evc how to put me on his ignore list as he promised since he clearly had not. I am sure in most eyes it was done with contempt. There are so many inaccuracies and inconsistencies in this thread that it can make your head spin. I especially like how Evc has done this “for years” when he saw his very first P4 3 months ago according to this thread. (and now the backpedaling will commence) A little more real world experience may help ones credibility. And the personal “attack” issue has still not been addressed. Funny how his are not considered. Then you PM'd us and asked us to stop … he still felt the need to comment after that ... and appears to have no ill effects from it. Indeed, there are double standards here.

No need to go on, when someone here can’t even tell I am not arguing for Intel, but for accuracy in data. I have many of each system and have had access to both brands for longer than 3 months. Objectivity is the key.

As for the existence of this thread being proof that the site is not AMD biased … sorry, why did it degenerate into someone having to tell P4 users their choice is inferior then? You talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Forget it, move along, there is nothing to see here.